STAR WARS! STAR WARS! STAR WARS

AudioAce said:
It terrible what happened to Kelly. To attack someone like that is never acceptable, even if you think shes not fit to be in your space wizard movie.


My only criticism for that I have is her character could of been used so much better in that movie. A rebel member looking for revenge rather then doing whats best for the rebellion would of been much more interesting. It wasn't written well I think. But that is how I feel. Hey its time for a spoiler ramble.

What happened to that kid that had force powers at the end of The Last Jedi?! Did I miss something or was that thread just forgotten? Finn and Rose having no arc in the Skywalker was dumb too. At least set up the love interest and go through with it. Don't just lead the audience to believe Finn and Rey are a thing. That ending with Ben and her would of worked still with or with out the "oh Rey I need to tell you something". Its dumb that what was left as threads like what I mentioned or the whole Lando daughter thing might not even be explored. This is the end of the Skywalker saga. Unless Kevin Feige can do what he did with Marvel with Star Wars, I don't think the future for the series will be as enjoyable as everything thats not apart of the movies. Clone Wars, Rebels heck, even Jedi Fallen Order have taken what was their and made interesting stories. Maybe without the shadow of the former cast we can get something better in the universe....I'm hoping for a Kotor adaptation.
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re: Rose, I think it's great to have a character who is a true idealist, especially when her role in the story is to demonstrate to Finn, a former Stormtrooper, what sets the Rebellion apart from the First Order.

re: spoiler

Broom Boy is a thematic beat rather than a narrative one. Both a reminder that Luke's sacrifice became a story that was told across the galaxy and gave hope to the downtrodden, and that The Force belongs to all people, not just a few powerful bloodlines. That's all it needs to be.
 
kvetcha said:
re: spoiler

Broom Boy is a thematic beat rather than a narrative one. Both a reminder that Luke's sacrifice became a story that was told across the galaxy and gave hope to the downtrodden, and that The Force belongs to all people, not just a few powerful bloodlines. That's all it needs to be.
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I agree, it's a great thematic beat which a lot of online theorists (ie literalists) made 30000 YouTube videos about. On first viewing I think that shot was a little Dickensian or even Les Miserable for Star Wars but I think that was really the point, it's a point of departure and possibility for the franchise. Too bad

TRoS really killed this theme. The idea that Finn is force sensitive sort of picks it up in a lamer way but it that was chopped out of the film. Oh well, maybe if Rian still does his SW trilogy it will feature similar themes.
 
JonnyH said:
What does fan service even mean? Why is it bad to make movies that you think your fans will enjoy? Isn’t that the point of like 99.9% of the movies that Disney makes?
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In the case of TRoS? It means sacrificing any sort of narrative or thematic coherence at the altar of The Fans. The movie feels like two and a half hours of capitulation to angry YouTubers and Twitter trolls. JJ spends so much time apologizing to his audience that he forgets to actually tell a story.
 
JonnyH said:
What does fan service even mean? Why is it bad to make movies that you think your fans will enjoy? Isn’t that the point of like 99.9% of the movies that Disney makes?
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IIRC term has roots in the anime world, where it is used pejoratively usually refer to the sexualization of female characters for the enjoyment of male fans. This is a great example of an extreme case where it doesn't serve the narrative and helps to reinforce toxic gender lines, sticking out like a sore thumb to anyone with a remotely evolved mind.

In the context of something like Star Wars I would say it's a moment that serves no narrative purpose and sticks out as a result. So bringing the cast of the OT back serves the plot and pleases fans, but

Giving Chewie a medal just interrupts the natural flow of the film's celebration, just to please a long standing fan meme. The moment has no narrative purpose in the context of the film and it has no visual or thematic significance either. I'd call that fan service.
 
You said it better than I was typing out. There were so many reactions to what fans thought about TLJ that it made the entire series seem so incoherent and sloppy.
 
kvetcha said:
In the case of TRoS? It means sacrificing any sort of narrative or thematic coherence at the altar of The Fans. The movie feels like two and a half hours of capitulation to angry YouTubers and Twitter trolls. JJ spends so much time apologizing to his audience that he forgets to actually tell a story.
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So it sounds to me like you are saying the definition of “fan service” is something like: I don’t like this, and I’m kinda upset that other people like it, therefore I think this was added specifically for them and not me- and what about me?

Is that accurate?
 
zombie.modernist said:
IIRC term has roots in the anime world, where it is used pejoratively usually refer to the sexualization of female characters for the enjoyment of male fans. This is a great example of an extreme case where it doesn't serve the narrative and helps to reinforce toxic gender lines, sticking out like a sore thumb to anyone with a remotely evolved mind.

In the context of something like Star Wars I would say it's a moment that serves no narrative purpose and sticks out as a result. So bringing the cast of the OT back serves the plot and pleases fans, but

Giving Chewie a medal just interrupts the natural flow of the film's celebration, just to please a long standing fan meme. The moment has no narrative purpose in the context of the film and it has no visual or thematic significance either. I'd call that fan service.
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I think your spoiler example does serve a narrative purpose. You just need to view it as a whole(the entire series) and not just the one moment in the one movie. That moment to me was very beautiful and certainly not anywhere close to disparaging people to make toxic fans happy- the way I understand your overall definition.
 
JonnyH said:
So it sounds to me like you are saying the definition of “fan service” is something like: I don’t like this, and I’m kinda upset that other people like it, therefore I think this was added specifically for them and not me- and what about me?

Is that accurate?
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Rose being sidelined in this movie was 100% a reaction to the negativity her character received after TLJ from "fans" as was
making Rey a Palpatine which obviously was never in the cards from JJ or he would've told Rian Johnson exactly that
 
JonnyH said:
So it sounds to me like you are saying the definition of “fan service” is something like: I don’t like this, and I’m kinda upset that other people like it, therefore I think this was added specifically for them and not me- and what about me?

Is that accurate?
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Not in the least. Something can be fan service and also serve a narrative and thematic purpose within the film, such as Yoda’s appearance in The Last Jedi. The problem with TRoS is that it is jammed full of fan service that exists ONLY to wink at the fan base, and not to contribute to the film itself. There’s so much of it that the movie itself suffocates.

It can be a nice condiment, but I do not want to eat a seven course meal that’s entirely condiments.
 
JonnyH said:
I think your spoiler example does serve a narrative purpose. You just need to view it as a whole(the entire series) and not just the one moment in the one movie. That moment to me was very beautiful and certainly not anywhere close to disparaging people to make toxic fans happy- the way I understand your overall definition.
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Well I'm suggesting it's a trickled down term, the anime misogyny is just the origin. It's really just content that winks at the audience (in that case younger male, but in this case just SW obsessives) and the larger cultural conversation beyond the media itself.

For me that moment was just poorly placed and one too many as @kvetcha suggests in a huge platter of them. It's funny because it's something that made the friend I went with (more casual fan) go "huh?" as it's such a SW nerd joke. That's really my point with some of this stuff, it's not really a callback because the reference point isn't even in the media itself, so at that point its a speed bump in the film that got a cheer from one member in my audience. Even though I "got it" these nods to online conversations and fan theories that felt off to me as it didn't feel genuine to this story, and particularly made me groan because

characters actually featured in this trilogy especially Rose got the finger from the filmmakers.
 
mdmost said:
Rose being sidelined in this movie was 100% a reaction to the negativity her character received after TLJ from "fans" as was
making Rey a Palpatine which obviously was never in the cards from JJ or he would've told Rian Johnson exactly that
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Rose was sidelined because she was a creation of Rian Johnson and never even existed in the story that JJ envisioned. Not to be intentionally cruel to her character, but it wasn’t that she was disliked, she was just irrelevant to the story being told. It wasn’t about fan reaction as much as it was about a lack of consistency in creative vision. JJ did do an outline for the entire trilogy but RJ was allowed to take things in an entirely different direction based on his own ideas. This is what I believe was the primary source of the failures in this trilogy. Story points and plot threads were set up in one film only to be abandoned in the next. RJ did this to the JJ and then the favor was returned when JJ concluded the trilogy. It was a narrative mess all throughout.
 
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Chucktshoes said:
Rose was sidelined because she was a creation of Rian Johnson and never even existed in the story that JJ envisioned. It wasn’t about fan reaction as much as it was about a lack of consistency in creative vision. JJ did do an outline for the entire trilogy but RJ was allowed to take things in an entirely different direction based on his own ideas. This is what I believe was the primary source of the failures in this trilogy. Story points and plot threads were set up in one film only to be abandoned in the next. RJ did this to the JJ and then the favor was returned when JJ concluded the trilogy. It was a narrative mess all throughout.
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JJ managed to find time to introduce three new characters and bring back the Knights of Ren for no narrative purpose. Sucks to his creative vision.
 
Chucktshoes said:
Rose was sidelined because she was a creation of Rian Johnson and never even existed in the story that JJ envisioned. It wasn’t about fan reaction as much as it was about a lack of consistency in creative vision. JJ did do an outline for the entire trilogy but RJ was allowed to take things in an entirely different direction based on his own ideas. This is what I believe was the primary source of the failures in this trilogy. Story points and plot threads were set up in one film only to be abandoned in the next. RJ did this to the JJ and then the favor was returned when JJ concluded the trilogy. It was a narrative mess all throughout.
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The entire franchise wasn't created by JJ, so he must have some ability to work within a world a characters that aren't his own....
 
kvetcha said:
JJ managed to find time to introduce three new characters and bring back the Knights of Ren for no narrative purpose. Sucks to his creative vision.
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zombie.modernist said:
The entire franchise wasn't created by JJ, so he must have some ability to work within a world a characters that aren't his own....
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The pairing up of JJ and RJ was a huge mistake. They didn’t just have differing creative visions, they had conflicting ones. JJ is a derivative filmmaker interested in providing the audience exactly what they are wanting and expecting. RJ made it explicit multiple times he sought to “subvert expectations” and regardless whether one liked one approach or the other, they did not mesh well in the least.
 
zombie.modernist said:
The entire franchise wasn't created by JJ, so he must have some ability to work within a world a characters that aren't his own....
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Guy had an idea and really, really wanted to stick to it. He sacrificed what was done in that movie so he could piece together a movie that had his original idea. I don't know if thats good or bad honestly. He should of stuck around for episode 8 and done the whole trilogy himself.

I don't think their is an outcome where you please everyone. Even if one were to ignore the bigots and clowns who held negative racial or sexist opinions people would still be mad about something. This franchise will always have that. It seems ingrained in the culture now to find something wrong in them.


I like episode 7 and enjoyed episode 8. The only one I don't really care for is 2. I don't really know how I feel about episode 9 yet. I gotta watch it again before I know how I feel. It was fun at least.
 
Chucktshoes said:
The pairing up of JJ and RJ was a huge mistake. They didn’t just have differing creative visions, they had conflicting ones. JJ is a derivative filmmaker interested in providing the audience exactly what they are wanting and expecting. RJ made it explicit multiple times he sought to “subvert expectations” and regardless whether one liked one approach or the other, they did not mesh well in the least.
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I agree, and don’t forget Trevorrow was in that cocktail as well. My initial reaction was bewilderment, none of them are remotely similar. Trevorrows blockbusters are way tackier than JJs, and he has serious gender blindspots so I’m certain he would have been a bigger disaster.

Still I think it could have worked if not for the tug of war. Alfonso Cuarón moved a lot of Hogwarts around and switched up the mise en scene and tone for his Harry Potter film. It works because when Newell came in for Goblet he let that stuff lie rather than moving it back again. Either way the filmmakers were set up to fail by the studio system.
 
Chucktshoes said:
The pairing up of JJ and RJ was a huge mistake. They didn’t just have differing creative visions, they had conflicting ones. JJ is a derivative filmmaker interested in providing the audience exactly what they are wanting and expecting. RJ made it explicit multiple times he sought to “subvert expectations” and regardless whether one liked one approach or the other, they did not mesh well in the least.
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yeah, I agree with you.
 
AudioAce said:
Guy had an idea and really, really wanted to stick to it. He sacrificed what was done in that movie so he could piece together a movie that had his original idea. I don't know if thats good or bad honestly. He should of stuck around for episode 8 and done the whole trilogy himself.

I don't think their is an outcome where you please everyone. Even if one were to ignore the bigots and clowns who held negative racial or sexist opinions people would still be mad about something. This franchise will always have that. It seems ingrained in the culture now to find something wrong in them.


I like episode 7 and enjoyed episode 8. The only one I don't really care for is 2. I don't really know how I feel about episode 9 yet. I gotta watch it again before I know how I feel. It was fun at least.
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I think it’s hard to make that assumption that this was some sort of plan derailed by Johnson. JJ has been pretty friendly in the press to Rian’s ideas, and I’m not so convinced the answers this film provides are what he had in mind in TFA. In fact based on what we know about his approach to LOST from what Lindelof dishes out, he likely didn’t have answers at the time.

Who’s to say where the blame lies with the sidelining, JJ, Terrio, the studio, but including her instead of new characters would have felt a little more genuine, sort of like how Lando has a lot less screentime in ROTJ but still leads the charge on the DS II as a general, or how Jar Jar gets to be a representative of Naboo.

Overall you can only blame poor planning as you suggest vs any one filmmaker.
 
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