Political Discussion

What is the establishment? Who is in the establishment?
It gets thrown around all over the place and I'm honestly confused now.

Bernie and (some of) his supporters who say the establishment has rigged the Primary against him, things are unfair, etc....I just don't get.
Some of this to me gives me Trump vibes.

We have, or will all have (depend on what state you're in) the ability to vote and make our voice heard. What's unfair about that?

Asking this all in good faith. Not an anti-Bernie post, more of being confused and trying to understand.
 
KenKaniff said:
What is the establishment? Who is in the establishment?
It gets thrown around all over the place and I'm honestly confused now.

Bernie and (some of) his supporters who say the establishment has rigged the Primary against him, things are unfair, etc....I just don't get.
Some of this to me gives me Trump vibes.

We have, or will all have (depend on what state you're in) the ability to vote and make our voice heard. What's unfair about that?

Asking this all in good faith. Not an anti-Bernie post, more of being confused and trying to understand.
Click to expand...
He probably could have made that case last year because I believe there was some leaked DNC emails that showed Clinton bias. However, it seems like last night his base just didn't get out in full force and he had trouble winning over black voters. I'd rather see Sanders go out this way than have to deal with a brokered convention. That wouldn't be good for anybody.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
This early morning tangent from a Gen X, die-hard Pete supporter (who viewed him as a compromise between generations) is pure poetry. As deliciously cathartic as ketamine and a pile of puppy dogs.

"Boomer democrats have convinced themselves the only way to beat trump is to stand for as little as possible. That’s Joes entire platform, if you cut out the American flags and spin.

That’s what is going on. Don’t try and fix things much, dont rock the boat, don’t try and address issues with new ideas, just be as uninspired as possible. Be as routine and lazy and focused grouped as you can. You want a nice dinner? No no, too hard, here’s canned tuna emptied out on a salad. Hey, it’s better than the food poisoning you got last night.

trump isn’t an anomaly. He’s A symptom of an illness that neoliberalism helped create.

Healthcare? No no, Obamacare just needs a little tlc. Student debt? No no, it just needs better rates. Climate change? Yea let’s definitely have another commission or two to discuss what to do. Legalization? No weed is a gateway drug! Remember M*A*S*H? What a great tv show.

Y’all are cowards. Truly.

I can’t wait to NOT vote for Joe Biden on the 14th. Unsure if warren or Sanders gets my vote at this point. Probably Sanders because at this point I just want to use a flamethrower on everything.

And once that’s done congratulations you’ve stolen another election from your children who, last I checked the numbers, voted for Biden at a rate of 5%

You’re not listening. Again. Young voters need to vote more. True. You know what would help that? If the system they are voting in wasn’t trash. If they felt welcomed in our party and not viewed as crazy or Marxist stalinists because they think student debt needs to be forgiven. If basic asks like not having to set up a go fund me to not die wasn’t viewed by their parents as “too radical.”

You completely miss the point that even if Biden wins, even if Trump is kicked to the curb, we are still in dystopia. My generation is still going to be saddled with crippling debt, premiums that they can’t pay for, working jobs that lead nowhere, because you didn’t have the courage to stand for something. Or more specifically you didn’t have the courage to admit that maybe it’s time to let your children have their say. But at least the president will be nice and probably gives good Christmas gifts

Over it. I’m leaving the Democratic Party after this primary and registering as an independent.

So sure. Run Michelle Obama or Pete or Abrams as your VP. Gloss over the intractability of your analog beliefs. Or don’t I don’t care, I’m voting for Biden in November anyway. Because unlike your selfish generation, I actually comprehend sacrifice for the greater good.

Assholes."
Click to expand...

The person you look up to and worked so hard for would not quit. What would Bernie Do? The struggle is only partly about results. The other part is about living true to your values.
 
KenKaniff said:
What is the establishment? Who is in the establishment?
It gets thrown around all over the place and I'm honestly confused now.

Bernie and (some of) his supporters who say the establishment has rigged the Primary against him, things are unfair, etc....I just don't get.
Some of this to me gives me Trump vibes.

We have, or will all have (depend on what state you're in) the ability to vote and make our voice heard. What's unfair about that?

Asking this all in good faith. Not an anti-Bernie post, more of being confused and trying to understand.
Click to expand...


Check the donor list of all all politicians. That's the establishment.
 
KenKaniff said:
Some of this to me gives me Trump vibes.
Click to expand...

Yep

KenKaniff said:
What is the establishment? Who is in the establishment?
Click to expand...
I'll take a stab

These are complicated questions and the answers you get will be different depending on who you ask and who they are affiliated with politically.

Basically, the establishment end of the democratic party are people who believe in neoliberal economic principles of free and unfettered markets that both promote innovation through creative destruction and profits for those who learn how to be a part of the system.

The last part of that sentence is one of the problems because not everybody has equal access to that economic system, not everybody starts from the same level playing field, and the people who are already a part of the system can manipulate it to protect their interests do so... because people.

Social principles are inherently not about capitalistic profits they are about human well-being. This is both threatening and confusing to anyone that believes and has been conditioned to believe in the goodness of the free market and the bootstraps lie that defines the american dream lingo

This is all still a gross oversimplification and I'm quite sure that many many people who are less educated than the folks here on this forum who toss around the word establishment don't really know what it means.

Fundamentally it's about the white landowning male power structure that the country was founded upon

Also you can all pass civics 101 now - you're welcome
 
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Dtknuckles said:
Check the donor list of all all politicians. That's the establishment.
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Got it. So establishment is rich people, not the party itself.
But don't all politicians, directly or indirectly benefit from big money? Doesn't Sanders have an "Our Revolution" PAC supporting him that doesn't have to disclose donors?
 
KenKaniff said:
Got it. So establishment is rich people, not the party itself.
But don't all politicians, directly or indirectly benefit from big money? Doesn't Sanders have an "Our Revolution" PAC supporting him that doesn't have to disclose donors?
Click to expand...

It isn't just rich people and it is what the party (the DNC that is) has chosen to represent. It isn't necessarily the beliefs of people who identify as democrats.

Sanders has stood on a platform of no corporate dollars which is part of his appeal to many. I don't know the details but the vast majority, all?, of the Sanders campaign dollars are smaller donations.

The establishment has also been used to describe people who have benefited from the system in a much more modest way, like simple home ownership, pensions, etc.... often this is dumped into the term Boomer because older people are interested in protecting their modest gains. Modest in particular when compared to the entities at the root of the issue.
 
KenKaniff said:
Thanks but thats just a list of first and last names. How do I know if they gave 10 dollars or 100,000. If they are a school teacher or fossil fuel exec?
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that is probably a lot more info that you would get out of other PACs. TO find out their profession you could google the names.

or

www.opensecrets.org

PAC Profile: Our Revolution PAC

Our Revolution PAC raised $32,473 in the 2019-2020 election cycle. See the details.
www.opensecrets.org www.opensecrets.org

If these numbers are correct its not that impressive. About 90K.
 
jaycee said:
Fundamentally it's about the white landowning male power structure that the country was founded upon
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I don't disagree with this summary. It does omit one wrinkle evident globally if not specifically in the US. You cannot get rid of 'The Establishment' and anyone selling that as an option needs to be watched like a hawk. At the most extreme, all you will ever do is substitute one establishment for another.
 
Dtknuckles said:
that is probably a lot more info that you would get out of other PACs. TO find out their profession you could google the names.

or

www.opensecrets.org

PAC Profile: Our Revolution PAC

Our Revolution PAC raised $32,473 in the 2019-2020 election cycle. See the details.
www.opensecrets.org www.opensecrets.org

If these numbers are correct its not that impressive. About 90K.
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I appreciate the dialogue here. Googling a million names isn't the same thing as transparency. Also impossible to verify if it's John Smith in Caribou, Maine or John Smith in Topeka, Kansas.

As I've mentioned previously, I was a big Pete guy, who now is now reluctantly for Biden.

Just not getting the narratives of Bernie getting screwed, the establishment is working against him, etc.

People voted, and will continue to vote. That is fair.
 
There there is this

www.opensecrets.org

Top Contributors, federal election data for Joe Biden, 2020 cycle

This page highlights the top contributors to Joe Biden for the 2020 presidential election cycle. For more information, click through to the page.
www.opensecrets.org www.opensecrets.org

www.opensecrets.org

Sen. Mitch McConnell - Kentucky

Fundraising profile for Sen. Mitch McConnell - Kentucky
www.opensecrets.org www.opensecrets.org

www.opensecrets.org

Top Contributors, federal election data for Bernie Sanders, 2020 cycle

This page highlights the top contributors to Bernie Sanders for the 2020 presidential election cycle. For more information, click through to the page.
www.opensecrets.org www.opensecrets.org
 
Ed Selley said:
I don't disagree with this summary. It does omit one wrinkle evident globally if not specifically in the US. You cannot get rid of 'The Establishment' and anyone selling that as an option needs to be watched like a hawk. At the most extreme, all you will ever do is substitute one establishment for another.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I was being very U.S. centric.

Edit: I do think that there is a thing that hasn't ever been done that will still be imperfect that is better. It will be run by people who will take advantage of it for their own self gain too, but there isn't any avoiding that.
 
Dtknuckles said:
There there is this

www.opensecrets.org

Top Contributors, federal election data for Joe Biden, 2020 cycle

This page highlights the top contributors to Joe Biden for the 2020 presidential election cycle. For more information, click through to the page.
www.opensecrets.org www.opensecrets.org

www.opensecrets.org

Sen. Mitch McConnell - Kentucky

Fundraising profile for Sen. Mitch McConnell - Kentucky
www.opensecrets.org www.opensecrets.org

www.opensecrets.org

Top Contributors, federal election data for Bernie Sanders, 2020 cycle

This page highlights the top contributors to Bernie Sanders for the 2020 presidential election cycle. For more information, click through to the page.
www.opensecrets.org www.opensecrets.org
Click to expand...

So everyone is in the establishment then because they are getting big donors in the hundreds of thousands of dollars from big companies?
Bernie is in the establishment as well.
 
KenKaniff said:
Just not getting the narratives of Bernie getting screwed, the establishment is working against him, etc.
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I did not state this. I said the establishment organized quickly for Pete and Amy to drop out. Boosting Biden's chances. I don't call that getting screwed. Well those are the rules. Are the rules fair? maybe. Bernie was challenging the system of cooperate interest in our politics. He though he found an end around, but going to small donors from lots of normal everyday people. They come close to winning big. That's not nothin'
 
KenKaniff said:
So everyone is in the establishment then because they are getting big donors in the hundreds of thousands of dollars from big companies?
Bernie is in the establishment as well.
Click to expand...


In portion to the money he received in small donations its a pittance. You also have to take into account where the money is coming from. Those donors aren't Goldman Sachs.
 
Dtknuckles said:
I did not state this. I said the establishment organized quickly for Pete and Amy to drop out. Boosting Biden's chances. I don't call that getting screwed. Well those are the rules. Are the rules fair? maybe. Bernie was challenging the system of cooperate interest in our politics. He though he found an end around, but going to small donors from lots of normal everyday people. They come close to winning big. That's not nothin'
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I didnt say you stated. I'm saying those are common narratives I've been seeing, especially today, and that I'm not grasping these narratives.

Who is the establishment that organized to get Pete and Amy out? How do you know there was also a coordination with the establishment, and not Pete and Amy just realistically seeing they didn't have a path and getting out to get behind a candidate they believed was best?
 
KenKaniff said:
I didnt say you stated. I'm saying those are common narratives I've been seeing, especially today, and that I'm not grasping these narratives.

Who is the establishment that organized to get Pete and Amy out? How do you know there was also a coordination with the establishment, and not Pete and Amy just realistically seeing they didn't have a path and getting out to get behind a candidate they believed was best?
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I think there were reports of a phone call. But, It doesn't matter if there was a phone call or if it was explicit said to them. They receive their support from the DNC. If they wanted to continue to receive that support they knew what they had to do.
 
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