Political Discussion

Joe Mac said:
I’m personally by a long way more interested in economic progressivism tbh.
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My favorite aspect of America is it's diversity. If I don't wind up marrying a white woman, every person of my generation within the family will have married a POC. More than half of my friends as an adult are POC spread across LA and Chicago. My parents met through my dad's lesbian roommate and we all hope my mom winds up with her best friend (lesbian) when my dad's cancer finally catches up with him. My favorite college prof is trans.

I still think identity politics are the problem for Democrats. The GOP gets to make a big fuss about how we support trans right while making it seem like a much bigger part of the progressive convo than it actually is. More importantly, Dems lean on identity politics instead of economic progressivism because their corporate donors are comfortable with that. And thus, Dems stick to arguing that everything is okay economically while appearing wildly out of touch and all of us are barely keeping our heads above water.

This is the other part that doesn't get talked about as far as Bernie's appeal to right leaning independents in 2016. He supported guns, he was a moderate on immigration, he was anti-Iraq and Afganistan but pro supporting our vets. He had literally all of the perfect stances to seem reasonable on the identity stuff plus the populist, righteous anger over the economic stuff and the balls to call Dems out on their corporate servitude. It also helped that he was a white male, admittedly.

I don't know how you fix this shit show. Trump is going to completely break things and there isn't a clear successor to Bernie. But from some of the discourse I'm seeing online, people at least seem to recognize that the focus on identity politics clearly isn't working when Trump is pulling nearly half of the Latino vote. There needs to be an emphasis on economic populism and a real effort to win back over male voters moving forward. And nobody wants for-profit wars. NOBODY. (And I'm pro-Ukraine).
 
Joe Mac said:
The question then is if I start bringing in real effective revenue raising measutes measures like progressive income taxes at real rates and wealth and inheritance taxes and spending that money on social welfare aid and programmes will you necessarily support those.
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I am all for real taxes. I support a flat percentage tax and think the idea of having deductions is stupid. I’m not against a tiered tax either. I am a big believer in social welfare as well. I also believe that we should have a balanced budget.

I believe most Americans would be on board with this as well but words like socialism have been weaponized and well, it’s a fucking capitalist country, so the word combo of “redistribution of wealth” causes people to seethe.

Politically though, I believe it will take time to get there. I think moderates are needed to fight the good fight.

If I’m completely honest, I think my future endeavors or political or social in nature but I am concerned about dickhead’s first 100 days. I don’t want to position my family to be vunerable should we be at the beginning of the purge or handmaid’s tale.

Things are a lot easier with out kids.
 
Nee Lewman said:
I am all for real taxes. I support a flat percentage tax and think the idea of having deductions is stupid. I’m not against a tiered tax either. I am a big believer in social welfare as well. I also believe that we should have a balanced budget.

I believe most Americans would be on board with this as well but words like socialism have been weaponized and well, it’s a fucking capitalist country, so the word combo of “redistribution of wealth” causes people to seethe.

Politically though, I believe it will take time to get there. I think moderates are needed to fight the good fight.

If I’m completely honest, I think my future endeavors or political or social in nature but I am concerned about dickhead’s first 100 days. I don’t want to position my family to be vunerable should we be at the beginning of the purge or handmaid’s tale.

Things are a lot easier with out kids.
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I’ve always thought a flat income tax percentage is gross. I believe in progressive income taxes. Some people pay nothing. Most pay 20-40%. Some pay a much higher percentage.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs
 
Joe Mac said:
I’ve always thought a flat tax percentage is gross. I believe in progressive income taxes. Some people pay nothing. Most pay 20-40%. Some pay a much higher percentage.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs
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Like I said a tiered makes sense to me but I think a flat makes sense if everyone is contributing 30% or whatever then it’s a level playing field, especially if you remove tax incentives, deductions and other loop holes. (And across the board, like you get a penalty if you move your money out of the tax system.). We are “tiered” here but when you give people the opportunity to reduce their burden to nothing… it makes it a moot point. At the same time, there is no reason that Gates, Beezos and Musk, etc. can’t pay 95% tax rates.
 
Nee Lewman said:
Like I said a tiered makes sense to me but I think a flat makes sense if everyone is contributing 30% or whatever then it’s a level playing field, especially if you remove tax incentives, deductions and other loop holes. (And across the board, like you get a penalty if you move your money out of the tax system.). We are “tiered” here but when you give people the opportunity to reduce their burden to nothing… it makes it a moot point. At the same time, there is no reason that Gates, Beezos and Musk, etc. can’t pay 95% tax rates.
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I think that kind of shows the differences in our backgrounds. I’ve only ever known one party advocating for a flat rate income tax and they’re the farthest right party I’ve know that were largely set up by members of the government who left in protest at the introduction of laws allowing for the provision abortion after we had lifted the constitutional ban by referendum. In large the idea against it from a progressive point that a flat rate income tax unduly burdens people at the bottom of the scale whilst not causing people at the top to pay a fair contribution according to their ability to pay. I’d see it as a regressive tax regime.

The problem with oligarchs is that their money and wealth isn’t in income; income taxes don’t touch them at all really. That’s where monopoly busting laws and wealth taxes come into play.
 
Joe Mac said:
I think that kind of shows the differences in our backgrounds. I’ve only ever known one party advocating for a flat rate income tax and they’re the farthest right party I’ve know that were largely set up by members of the government who left in protest at the introduction of laws allowing for the provision abortion after we had lifted the constitutional ban by referendum. In large the idea against it from a progressive point that a flat rate income tax unduly burdens people at the bottom of the scale whilst not causing people at the top to pay a fair contribution according to their ability to pay. I’d see it as a regressive tax regime.

The problem with oligarchs is that their money and wealth isn’t in income; income taxes don’t touch them at all really. That’s where monopoly busting laws and wealth taxes come into play.
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I can see all that. I would also say that corporations need to be taxed in the same manner. You have to remove all ability to hide the money. You took this money in - where did it go? You lie on your income tax return (or maybe just get rid of them) off to jail and we seize everything.
 
Also, the systems have to support those people at the bottom. So folks like whoever’s uncle… well you actually don’t qualify for this unemployment benefit and also, shame on you.
 
Nee Lewman said:
I can see all that. I would also say that corporations need to be taxed in the same manner. You have to remove all ability to hide the money. You took this money in - where did it go? You lie on your income tax return (or maybe just get rid of them) off to jail and we seize everything.
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Flat taxes suck. My taxes went drastically up when I moved to IL from CA. Because as somebody making 70k a year, I was only taxed 3% in CA versus the flat tax of 5.2% in IL.
 
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nolalady said:
Yes this would be great, but we need to keep in mind there are people that subsist on this junk because they have no other option. We need a full strategy on feeding people that has more to do with getting people access to healthy food instead of a broad ban on certain foods. We need to explore our farm subsidy strategy and update it to match our current health recommendations. Thankfully, the cdc has moved away from the food pyramid and towards the “healthy plate” but our food subsidy system is stuck on the food pyramid.

This is not the same as the attack on soda because convenience stores already had the space for water. And soda is not forbidden in places, it’s just portion restricted. To bring healthier items to people who desperately need it—those that are malnourished not due to lack of calories but lack of nutritious calories—we would have to change a lot of infrastructure in convenience stores and fast food places.

Omg, so I never get fast food because…waves arms…gluten. Well, the kids got junior frosty coupons so I say, why not? They have the new pineapple frosty and that looks tasty. Frosties are gluten free, right? WRONG. The pineapple stuff they add has gluten!!! I have been sick all week. It sucks.
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Yes 100% agree with the first part. It’s a huge challenge.
 
Joe Mac said:
I think I pay noting up to about €12k, 20% between €12k and about €42k and 41% above that. Also a remaining recession emergency income tax of 4% that’s never been taken off the books….
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I hear you. It sort of works that way here but all the loopholes. So you have fuckers in the 1% paying nothing or less than my family. Here’s what it’s supposed to look like next year:

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Nee Lewman said:
I hear you. It sort of works that way here but all the loopholes. So you have fuckers in the 1% paying nothing or less than my family. Here’s what it’s supposed to look like next year:

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That’s not because progressive income tax doesn’t work, it’s because they’re not getting traditional income. There needs be methods to effectively tax non traditional income at similar rates alongside progressive income tax for traditional income.
 
Joe Mac said:
That’s not because progressive income tax doesn’t work, it’s because they’re not getting traditional income. There needs be methods to effectively tax non traditional income at similar rates alongside progressive income tax for traditional income.
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It’s not necessarily about trad vs nontrad though. It’s about the ability to manipulate the system to reduce your burden to nothing and it favoring the wealthy. There are deductions that favor lower income folks but they apply to everyone. Most of Harris’ (and I need to say this again but it was disgustingly to me how every one referred to Trump as Trump and Harris as Kamala. It’s okay to be more familiar with her?) economic stimulus plans were exemptions and deductions that would further burden the governments spending power by removing taxes from the recipients. Whether it’s through a flat or tiered system, I believe that is the best way to get everyone to pay their fair share. Remove the ability to make easy not to pay what you were asked/expected to pay. Reagan’s awful trickle down economics are still the lay of the land here, just not in the tax tables. In their ability to pay less than everyone else through loopholes designed to benefit the rich. So do away with them all.
 
Nee Lewman said:
It’s not necessarily about trad vs nontrad though. It’s about the ability to manipulate the system to deduce your burden to nothing and it favoring the wealthy. There are deductions that favor lower income folks but they apply to everyone. Most of Harris’ (and I need to say this again but it was disgustingly to me how every one referred to Trump as Trump and Harris as Kamala. It’s okay to be more familiar with her?) economic stimulus plans were exemptions and deductions that would further burden the governments spending power by removing taxes from the recipients. Whether it’s through a flat or tiered system, I believe that is the best way to get everyone to pay their fair share. Remove the ability to make easy not to pay what you were asked/expected to pay. Reagan’s awful trickle down economics are still the lay of the land here, just not in the tax tables. In their ability to pay less than everyone else through loopholes designed to benefit the rich. So do away with them all.
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Yeah I don’t think we have that on a personal income tax level. It’s more that non traditional income tends to fall into capital gains rather than income and of course is a lower burden. No one in the 1% is getting a payslip. Also it’s hard to tax wealth held in shares and assets, a lot of their wealth isn’t in cash or income. I’m still staunchly against any suggestion of flat rate though, it’s the most unfair system on the bottom of the pile.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Flat taxes suck. My taxes went drastically up when I moved to IL from CA. Because as somebody making 70k a year, I was only taxed 3% in CA versus the flat tax of 5.2% in IL.
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Damn that's small! Our tax rates are 15-25% provincially and 25-50% if you add federal taxes. That said, for as much as we complain about our services (and there certainly is a lot to fix), we do get quite a bit back in the form of health care and services.
 
Turbo said:
Damn that's small! Our tax rates are 15-25% provincially and 25-50% if you add federal taxes. That said, for as much as we complain about our services (and there certainly is a lot to fix), we do get quite a bit back in the form of health care and services.
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Yeah, I was talking state taxes. My federal tax rate is 22%. Of note, you guys have far more social safety nets and I would trade your higher taxes for universal healthcare anyday.

Instead, we just go bankrupt once we're sick.
 
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