Political Discussion

[Teeeee]

This drives me absolutely freekin' crazy, vote for SOMEBODY for the love of god. By not voting you've given up your right to choose a leader, and in doing so, your right to complain about that leader after they've won.

Oh I voted. So I retain my right to complain. And I have generously used that right in the last few years.

And I agree. Please vote. Everyone.

 

[debianlinux]

Last I checked Biden was big on gun control so there would be that bone thrown.

 

[debianlinux]

Oh I voted. So I retain my right to complain. And I have generously used that right in the last few years.

And I agree. Please vote. Everyone.

Interesting, I've always looked at it opposite. You vote you are complicit in the system you have no right to complain. You don't vote, you are not in any way part of the problem you retain a right to complain.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I don't think so man, I think Joe wins. I know polls are mostly meaningless thanks to the last presidential election but I find it hard to believe anyone not named Hillary Clinton won't be able to beat Trump. I mean I've seen polls that has Joe leading in Texas and North Carolina. If he wins those states, then Trump doesn't have a prayer.

There are also polls showing Bernie winning in Texas. It's not confined to Joe. Not to mention that you are just begging people to stay home if it's Mr. Authoritarian Bigot versus Mr. "Nothing Will Change"

Joe reminds me of that Rosie Perez quote from White Men Can't Jump. Because even if he wins, America loses.

 

[Twentytwo]

There are also polls showing Bernie winning in Texas. It's not confined to Joe. Not to mention that you are just begging people to stay home if it's Mr. Authoritarian Bigot versus Mr. "Nothing Will Change"

Joe reminds me of that Rosie Perez quote from White Men Can't Jump. Because even if he wins, America loses.

Although joe as pres is in no way ideal, it is better than the current status quo. So I hope you're right.

The more he's in the news, the more I want him to shut up. He is turning off his own voter base. That comment yesterday is him. He IS white male privilege. And that is not attractive to well, most anyone that isn't a white male.

But I dunno. Hopefully everyone that "just couldn't vote for Hillary so didn't vote at all" has learned that lesson, will pinch their nose and vote this time.

I get it, Joe is less than ideal but if it is between Trump and him, the choice is clear. While the majority of people on here may be flaming liberals like myself, not sure the rest of America is there yet. I get that progressive ideas are being tossed around like crazy as they need to be but the chances of getting these policies enacted anytime soon are not very good. Doesn't mean we give up but at the present moment, we are going backwards. It just frustrates me that people like Obama and Joe are being looked at so terribly. Perfect they are not, but I will take Joe or Obama in a heartbeat compared to the daily shitshow we have a present.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

As a former evangelical (currently unsure), this is something I respect. If you don’t agree with abortion, then don’t have one, but don’t tell anyone else they can’t.

I see people calling others ‘far left’, ‘far right’, ‘centrists’, etc. First, the ‘center’ has moved so far right, as a former Republican, I don’t even recognize the GOP anymore. It’s basically become the modern day KKK, and even moderate Republicans are being called ‘leftists’, ‘socialists’, and the like.

I consider myself left of center. I think we need borders, but also should make it easier to become a citizen. People should be able to own guns reasonable for personal protection or game hunting, but not for mass casualty. Gun control should be nationally equal, forget the states having individual laws.

I am terrified of what we’ve become as a country, or rather what’s come out of the closet. Christians hide behind their Christianity to get away with despicable acts towards anyone not Christian, and the one Republican with the courage to call out our current administration for their hypocrisy (Justin Amash) gets shunned by the rest of his party.

I have more to say, just am too exhausted to continue....

A) I really respect you, your intellectual curiosity and the fact that you've managed to keep your faith while also leaving behind Evangelicalism. It's a tricky balance though I'm far more familiar with the internal battle millenial Mormons face due to the parts of the country I've spent extensive time in.

B) I in no way think you will agree with all of it, but I'd be really curious for your thoughts on that Bernie / Rogan interview. As I've said elsewhere, I'm team Warren or Bernie and will vote for whom ever appears better posed to take California. That said... I find myself hoping it's Bernie, not because of my support in 2016, but because I believe deeply in his ability to reach across the political divide due to his empathy, honesty and authenticity. The Rogan interview has reaffirmed this view based on the reaction right wingers seem to be having to it (based off the comment section, and my more conservative friends reactions).

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I get it, Joe is less than ideal but if it is between Trump and him, the choice is clear. While the majority of people on here may be flaming liberals like myself, not sure the rest of America is there yet. I get that progressive ideas are being tossed around like crazy as they need to be but the chances of getting these policies enacted anytime soon are not very good. Doesn't mean we give up but at the present moment, we are going backwards. It just frustrates me that people like Obama and Joe are being looked at so terribly. Perfect they are not, but I will take Joe or Obama in a heartbeat compared to the daily shitshow we have a present.

A) I have my issues with Obama but still voted for him twice and would still call him the best President of my lifetime (and post-Carter). Joe is firmly to the right of Obama. Hell, he is to the right of Clinton.

B) NAFTA, Iraq, the Crime bill of 94, gutting Glass Steagall, the student bankruptcy bill, the credit card interest rate bill.... I could go on and on. There are plenty of reasons to straight up despise Biden. And that's without including the fact that he keeps pulling the Clinton card of taunting people under 35, has said "nothing will change" to a room full of the 1% while campaigning and has called for a middle ground on climate change.

I cede that it will be an uphill battle for whomever wins, but would argue that's even more reason to have the starting point of negotiating farther to the left. America is far more progressive than you think and polling repeatedly says as much when it comes to issue-based questionnaires. Biden only has support of (roughly) 30 percent of the Democratic electorate. The problem is that there are so many people in the race that his opposition is being splintered in different directions.

 

[BjorgenFjorgen]

The problem is that there are so many people in the race that his opposition is being splintered in different directions.

This times a million. People like Beto and Pete could be having far bigger impacts running for Senate or whatever than their pointless presidential campaigns.

 

[Twentytwo]

A) He is firmly to the right of Obama. Hell, he is to the right of Clinton.

B) NAFTA, Iraq, the Crime bill of 94, glass Steagall, the student bankruptcy bill, the credit card interest rate bill.... I could go on and on. There are plenty of reasons to straight up despise Biden. And that's without including the fact that he keeps pulling the Clinton card of taunting people under 35, has said "nothing will change" to a room full of the 1% while campaigning and has called for a middle ground on climate change.

America is far more progressive than you think and polling repeatedly says as much when it comes to issues based questionnaires. He has support of roughly 30 percent of the electorate. The problem is that there are so many people in the replace that his opposition is being splintered in different directions.

I totally get what you are saying. When you've been in politics as long as Joe has you are bound to have supported more than your fair share of awful legislation. Not only that the democratic party has changed substantially in the last ten years. 20-30 years ago the stuff he supported was not radical, it was the status quo for the democratic party. He's right in that change is not going to occur unless we get the money out of politics and start electing progressives everywhere but that is easier said than done. Especially when states gerrymander the districts so bad that democrats have zero chance of winning. Works in big cities but here in Tennessee it is almost impossible to get a conservative democrat elected much less a liberal. America is very progressive in the cities but still pretty conservative in the rural areas. I voted for Bernie in the primary in 2016 but not really sure who I support at the moment. I like Bernie, Elizabeth, and Amy Klobuchar a lot. It still remains to be seen if Joe can even with the nomination since he has never even won a primary before.

 

[Twentytwo]

This times a million. People like Beto and Pete could be having far bigger impacts running for Senate or whatever than their pointless presidential campaigns.

Yes but that didn't seem to hurt Donald Trump in 2016. Granted most Republican primaries are winner take all instead of proportional.

 

[BjorgenFjorgen]

Yes but that didn't seem to hurt Donald Trump in 2016. Granted most Republican primaries are winner take all instead of proportional.

What didn't hurt him, running a pointless campaign? Okay. The difference is Beto has a totally winnable seat in Texas that would actually help whoever wins the primary and hopefully the presidency.

 

[Twentytwo]

What didn't hurt him, running a pointless campaign? Okay. The difference is Beto has a totally winnable seat in Texas that would actually help whoever wins the primary and hopefully the presidency.

I hope that Texas Senate seat is winnable but it remains to be seen. Cornyn is way more popular than Cruz and Beto couldn't even beat Cruz.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I totally get what you are saying. When you've been in politics as long as Joe has you are bound to have supported more than your fair share of awful legislation. Not only that the democratic party has changed substantially in the last ten years. 20-30 years ago the stuff he supported was not radical, it was the status quo for the democratic party. He's right in that change is not going to occur unless we get the money out of politics and start electing progressives everywhere but that is easier said than done. Especially when states gerrymander the districts so bad that democrats have zero chance of winning. Works in big cities but here in Tennessee it is almost impossible to get a conservative democrat elected much less a liberal. America is very progressive in the cities but still pretty conservative in the rural areas. I voted for Bernie in the primary in 2016 but not really sure who I support at the moment. I like Bernie, Elizabeth, and Amy Klobuchar a lot. It still remains to be seen if Joe can even with the nomination since he has never even won a primary before.

We view this differently. I see the Biden's and Clinton's of the world as politicians who very purposely dragged the Democrats to the right economically via deregulation, privatization, for profit wars and free trade agreements. In the process, they created a short term economic boom that is looked back upon fondly (by people over the age of 50) BUT they also helped to decimate the working and middle classes in the long term AND opened the door to Trump via those decisions... because eventually the working class realized the Democratic Party had abandoned them.

Meanwhile, the neo-con/liberalism idoelogy and its ripple effects have been studied in poli-sci and sociology classes for decades now and experienced via the post-boomer wasteland economy of the past 10 years-- and it's pushed people under 35 further and further to the left and opened up the door for the Warren's and Bernie's of the world to argue for a return to the policies of FDR (or at least a modernized version of them).

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

An opposing view might be that his support is only this high because lower-info voters only recognize a few of the names to start with.

I'd agree but that doesn't explain his support in Iowa.

 

[Sonicpharmacist]

A) I really respect you, your intellectual curiosity and the fact that you've managed to keep your faith while also leaving behind Evangelicalism. It's a tricky balance though I'm far more familiar with the internal battle millenial Mormons face due to the parts of the country I've spent extensive time in.

B) I in no way think you will agree with all of it, but I'd be really curious for your thoughts on that Bernie / Rogan interview. As I've said elsewhere, I'm team Warren or Bernie and will vote for whom ever appears better posed to take California. That said... I find myself hoping it's Bernie, not because of my support in 2016, but because I believe deeply in his ability to reach across the political divide due to his empathy, honesty and authenticity. The Rogan interview has reaffirmed this view based on the reaction right wingers seem to be having to it (based off the comment section, and my more conservative friends reactions).

Thank you, I appreciate the comment. TBH, I’ve been losing faith since the election of DJT, and the blind support of the evangelicals. I haven’t seen the Rogan interview, but for me, I’d support Warren over Bernie. I felt burned (pun intended) last election, and it left a bad taste in my mouth. And I believe that we need to keep the private insurance as an option instead of forcing everyone to give up an insurance they actually like. I think we’d eventually get to a Medicare For All situation, with private insurances driving up their rates and those who decided to keep their private insurance leaving in droves once they see their costs skyrocket.

But, as I said before, I’d support any of the dems over DJT. Even Biden.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Thank you, I appreciate the comment. TBH, I’ve been losing faith since the election of DJT, and the blind support of the evangelicals. I haven’t seen the Rogan interview, but for me, I’d support Warren over Bernie. I felt burned (pun intended) last election, and it left a bad taste in my mouth. And I believe that we need to keep the private insurance as an option instead of forcing everyone to give up an insurance they actually like. I think we’d eventually get to a Medicare For All situation, with private insurances driving up their rates and those who decided to keep their private insurance leaving in droves once they see their costs skyrocket.

But, as I said before, I’d support any of the dems over DJT. Even Biden.

I guess I'd just encourage you to give it a listen at some point even if it's just to stir thought. Discussion of progressive policy functions much better in a long form format where it can be discussed in nuance since, inevitably, the focus is on systemic issues and the ways in which they overlap with one another.

Personally, medicare for all is my #2 issue after climate change and I consider it something that should be close to non-negotiable. People would be able to keep their doctors and deductibles, premiums and outlandish hospital fees would disappear so who cares if you no longer have a card in your pocket that says you're a Blue Shield member.

I used to be in favor of a single payer (government) option but the de-evolution of the ACA has made it clear to me that as long as private insurance exists, they will do everything in their power to undermine the government option. See the fact that Obamacare works far better in blue states while politicians in red states have done everything they can to ensure it's non-functioning. They would rather their constituents pay up the bum (to drum up opposition). Meanwhile, the courts wiped out the individual mandate which means everyone's costs have gone up (even in blue states) because healthy people have dropped out of the available pool.

And frankly, that's likely what would happen to a government option-- it would collapse under it's own weight because everyone with a life threatening desiese would wind up in the government option while a chunk of the healthy people keep their private plans.

And that's not even taking into consideration who exactly would be writing the laws for the public option. Because last go-round Obama let insurance companies and big pharma dictate the process.

 

[Sonicpharmacist]

I guess I'd just encourage you to give it a listen at some point even if it's just to stir thought. Discussion of progressive policy functions much better in a long form format where it can be discussed in nuance since, inevitably, the focus is on systemic issues and the ways in which they overlap with one another.

Personally, medicare for all is my #2 issue after climate change and I consider it something that should be close to non-negotiable. People would be able to keep their doctors and deductibles, premiums and outlandish hospital fees would disappear so who cares if you no longer have a card in your pocket that says you're a Blue Shield member.

I used to be in favor of a single payer option but the de-evolution of the ACA has made it clear to me that as long as private insurance exists, they will do everything in their power to undermine the government option. See the fact that Obamacare works far better in blue states while politicians in red states have done everything they can to ensure it's non-functioning. They would rather their constituents being paying up the bum (and drum up opposition). Meanwhile, the courts wiped out the individual mandate while means everyone's costs have gone up (even in blue states) because healthy people have dropped out of the available pool.

And frankly, that's likely what would happen to a government option-- it would collapse under it's own weight because everyone with a life threatening desiese would wind up in the government option while a huge chunk of the healthy people keep private plans.

And that's not even taking into consideration who exactly would be writing the laws for the public option. Because last go-round Obama let insurance companies and big pharma dictate the process.

I agree, Medicare for all is one of my higher priorities, but, as I said, I’d rather get there naturally than shove it down peoples’ throats. If the private option is open, then all the “socialism sucks” naysayers can keep their private insurance if they choose....but they’d eventually wind up going with the gov’t option anyways.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I agree, Medicare for all is one of my higher priorities, but, as I said, I’d rather get there naturally than shove it down peoples’ throats. If the private option is open, then all the “socialism sucks” naysayers can keep their private insurance if they choose....but they’d eventually wind up going with the gov’t option anyways.

My point is that I don't think there is a natural way to get there because a government option is destined to fail so long as private insurance is allowed to exist (for the reasons stated above).

And if it does fail- kiss goodbye any hope of ever convincing the public to go full M4A.

 

[Sonicpharmacist]

My point is that I don't think there is a natural way to get there because a government option is destined to fail so long as private insurance is allowed to exist (for the reasons stated above).

And if it does fail- kiss goodbye any hope of ever convincing the public to go full M4A.

I misread/misunderstood your original comment. That’s an interesting point I hadn’t considered. I’ll have to do more research into the arguments on how to get there. I appreciate your insight.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I misread/misunderstood your original comment. That’s an interesting point I hadn’t considered. I’ll have to do more research into the arguments on how to get there. I appreciate your insight.

Of course. As I said, I appreciate your willingness to have a conversation.

I would read into the ways the ACA has been undermined in red states, the amount of money private insurance has spent on lobbying (if memory serves Bernie talks about in the Rogan interview), about why the personal mandate existed (keeping healthy people in the pool to prevent costs from rising), and the court cases that have been a part of making the ACA as low functioning as possible (including the gutting of said mandate).

If I have some time, I'll post some links.