Political Discussion

Chucktshoes said:
Fine. I’m an asshole. I mean I already knew that, but are you happy now?
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Did I say you were an asshole? No. I said you were condescending and disrespectful in your recent actions. There is a huge difference. By taking the stance you just did you either are deflecting from fact that you stick by your words or you aren't comfortable with making amends with a group of people you insulted wholesale.
 
debianlinux said:
You might be right. I'm of the opinion the long term problems have been staved off in favor of endless short term issues so long that it's an easy position to take now. Whereas if those issues had been addressed in a timely manner I would posit we wouldn't really be dealing with the other issues in any meaningful way. so, we'll just keep kicking them to the curb and coming up with new hot button issues to keep us from ever dealing with them?
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When this debate started to kick up, my first reaction was why can't we have a short term problem department and also have a long term problem department.
 
debianlinux said:
Abortion is easily compared to murder. Co-opting any form of murder is a pretty heinous idea. (personally, I think we need government regulated abortion clinics because it is a health issue not a moral issue, similarly, I support assisted suicide)

Gun control is a prerequisite step to tyrannical dictatorships. In all historical examples the populace was first disarmed. Gun control and disarmament are not the same thing but slippery slopes are a thing to be feared.
Then there's that Bill of Rights thing that essentially says it is not up for discussion. If we open the door on something as clear cut as that then the entire thing comes up for revision.
Gun violence is bad, really bad, but guns aren't actually the issue, in my opinion. There are much deeper issues driving the violence; guns just happen to be very convenient to that end.
Furthermore, there's perfectly good use for firearms in areas that are not very populated at all. Yet, I never hear policy that respects this fact.
Also, guns are an excellent equalizer which is an argument I would think more women would lean into. Guns actually are a pretty good crime deterrent in this way. What the policy seeks to remove it never appears to offer an acceptable replacement. Thus, I can empathize with a great deal of fear in this particular issue. Current proposed gun control policies have no appearance of actually addressing the issues in a useful way and historically they never have.

Immigration... well, now, I think there's some obvious fears of cultural dilution but I don't see how this country has a leg to stand on. I do think it's hypocritical that there are plenty of country's with tighter restrictions than we have that are not demonized for having them. The fact is, immigration is real and there are mechanisms to enable it. Personally, I would not be opposed to erasing borders entirely but that would break down existing power structures in such a way it will never, ever be allowed. And there, really, is the issue isn't it? It's not about racist rednecks at all. The current situation with the deportations and child abuse is repugnant, heinous, and in my opinion, should be treated similarly to war crimes.
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I'm on my phone so a longer response will have to wait.

I don't agree that abortion is murder. But I do agree with you that it is a health issue, not a moral issue. I also agree with you about assisted suicide.

I don't agree that the bill of rights says gun control is not up for discussion. It is not that clear cut. The 2nd amendment has the phrase "well regulated militia". And there are various schools of thought when trying to interpret what is meant. Do we read the constitution and amendments as the founding fathers wrote them in their circumstances? (Scalia supported this view of the constitution). Or do we interpret them as a document that is to adapt to society as it moves into the future? The assault rifles of today are vastly different than the muskets of then. So there is still a lot to debate there.

I don't want a gun. I don't want the power to hurt someone in that way. I've been gay bashed plenty and still do not think a gun would have helped the situation. I'll take the stitches and black eye and ptsd over harming someone with a gun every single day of the week.

I think there is a mid point between banning ALL THE GUNS and allowing ALL THE GUNS. As much as I loath guns, I'd be pretty darn happy to get to that mid point.

I, too, agree with getting rid of borders but whoo, boy, that would take a shift in a ton of people's thinking to get there. I do not think everyone that came to this country "illegally" should be considered illegal. We need to treat people better. We need to close those camps and figure this out another way. We need to stop these mass raids and deportations. There are people dying because of it.

We agree on things. We build on that. And we can respectfully talk out where we disagree. :)
 
debianlinux said:
You might be right. I'm of the opinion the long term problems have been staved off in favor of endless short term issues so long that it's an easy position to take now. Whereas if those issues had been addressed in a timely manner I would posit we wouldn't really be dealing with the other issues in any meaningful way. so, we'll just keep kicking them to the curb and coming up with new hot button issues to keep us from ever dealing with them?
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I don't disagree that candidates will take on an issue, like climate change, solely to placate voters during a campaign and then disregard it as "too complicated" afterwards. It's such a longstanding problem that most people brush it off as simply politics. It is till makes zero sense to assume the solution is to stay silent on something like Alabama making abortion punishable with life imprisonment. A nation of 330 million can take on both.

debianlinux said:
Abortion is easily compared to murder. Co-opting any form of murder is a pretty heinous idea.
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No, it actually requires quite a bit of mind-fuckery to get there. It is easy to say though. I'll agree with that.
 
Teeeee said:
I'm on my phone so a longer response will have to wait.

I don't agree that abortion is murder. But I do agree with you that it is a health issue, not a moral issue. I also agree with you about assisted suicide.

I don't agree that the bill of rights says gun control is not up for discussion. It is not that clear cut. The 2nd amendment has the phrase "well regulated militia". And there are various schools of thought when trying to interpret what is meant. Do we read the constitution and amendments as the founding fathers wrote them in their circumstances? (Scalia supported this view of the constitution). Or do we interpret them as a document that is to adapt to society as it moves into the future? The assault rifles of today are vastly different than the muskets of then. So there is still a lot to debate there.

I don't want a gun. I don't want the power to hurt someone in that way. I've been gay bashed plenty and still do not think a gun would have helped the situation. I'll take the stitches and black eye and ptsd over harming someone with a gun every single day of the week.

I think there is a mid point between banning ALL THE GUNS and allowing ALL THE GUNS. As much as I loath guns, I'd be pretty darn happy to get to that mid point.

I, too, agree with getting rid of borders but whoo, boy, that would take a shift in a ton of people's thinking to get there. I do not think everyone that came to this country "illegally" should be considered illegal. We need to treat people better. We need to close those camps and figure this out another way. We need to stop these mass raids and deportations. There are people dying because of it.

We agree on things. We build on that. And we can respectfully talk out where we disagree. :)
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Oops, that was pretty long as it is. Lol
 
Dtknuckles said:
Did I say you were an asshole? No. I said you were condescending and disrespectful in your recent actions. There is a huge difference. By taking the stance you just did you either are deflecting from fact that you stick by your words or you aren't comfortable with making amends with a group of people you insulted wholesale.
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My words were honest. I stand by them. I was directly addressing our continued exchanges with what you quoted, nothing more. I expressed regret at hurting Teeee, with my involvement in the thread, but I didn’t retract a single statement.

To revisit something you said that bears relation to this point, of course I don’t have the clinical background to make a diagnosis for a mass of people. That’s completely obvious. I don’t think anyone could reasonably believe that I’m operating from that premise. Still, they all understood what I meant, and I would surmise that you did too.
 
Chucktshoes said:
My words were honest. I stand by them. I was directly addressing our continued exchanges with what you quoted, nothing more. I expressed regret at hurting Teeee, with my involvement in the thread, but I didn’t retract a single statement.

To revisit something you said that bears relation to this point, of course I don’t have the clinical background to make a diagnosis for a mass of people. That’s completely obvious. I don’t think anyone could reasonably believe that I’m operating from that premise. Still, they all understood what I meant, and I would surmise that you did too.
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You came in here and essentially said you all are idiots, out of touch with reality and I like to watch you argue because it amuses me. Then you retract those sentiments for one person. Why would you think that was ok to do? Why would you think that was constructive? What were you adding to the conversation?
 
Dtknuckles said:
You came in here and essentially said you all are idiots, out of touch with reality and I like to watch you argue because it amuses me. Then you retract those sentiments for one person. Why would you think that was ok to do? Why would you think that was constructive? What were you adding to the conversation?
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I never said anybody was stupid, just crazy. And once again, I never retracted and single statement. My initial post was admittedly a moment where I was overcome by mirth and shouldn’t have been made. As you have made abundantly clear, and I have admitted, I am the asshole here. Other than my expressed regrets, everything else was, and continues to be in response to you.
 
Teeeee said:
I think there is a mid point between banning ALL THE GUNS and allowing ALL THE GUNS. As much as I loath guns, I'd be pretty darn happy to get to that mid point.
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I agree with this. I don't see a need to own a semi automatic rifle or large capacity magazine.
Hand guns and hunting rifles I get, im still iffy about shot guns. Both work great for intruders (if you're worried about privacy) but I do believe there needs to be better control on who gets these guns and eliminate loopholes within the system.
That's my mid point. If the government decides to come for all of us, we're screwed regardless of what type of gun you have.
 
@Dtknuckles and @Chucktshoes - don't you make me turn this car around! Lol.

Let's agree no one is the asshole or stupid or crazy and we've all been guilty of being a jerk at times - definitely myself included. We are all smart as heck people. I like hearing that you have had convos in here that cited a supreme court case! That's my kinda debate. If we all lived closer, I would throw the two of you in a room with a 12 pack of your favorite beer, some cigars and joints and then not let you out until you agreed that you can disagree about things and still be cool. You are both passionate about what you feel. Don't lose that.

I think there is something attractive about going to the internet to scream about things you find unjust or not right or whatever. I've been guilty of it. Because I don't have to see your faces when I do it. It's a way to vent in these really crazy and stressful times. So I get it, I really do. But goshdammit, you're making me non-cuss! YOU ARE BREAKING ME! Lol

Hugs to you both. And everyone else.
 
Teeeee said:
@Dtknuckles and @Chucktshoes - don't you make me turn this car around! Lol.

Let's agree no one is the asshole or stupid or crazy and we've all been guilty of being a jerk at times - definitely myself included. We are all smart as heck people. I like hearing that you have had convos in here that cited a supreme court case! That's my kinda debate. If we all lived closer, I would throw the two of you in a room with a 12 pack of your favorite beer, some cigars and joints and then not let you out until you agreed that you can disagree about things and still be cool. You are both passionate about what you feel. Don't lose that.

I think there is something attractive about going to the internet to scream about things you find unjust or not right or whatever. I've been guilty of it. Because I don't have to see your faces when I do it. It's a way to vent in these really crazy and stressful times. So I get it, I really do. But goshdammit, you're making me non-cuss! YOU ARE BREAKING ME! Lol

Hugs to you both. And everyone else.
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Don't worry, I've said my peace.
 
Teeeee said:
I don't agree that abortion is murder. But I do agree with you that it is a health issue, not a moral issue. I also agree with you about assisted suicide.
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I do believe life begins at conception.
The Christian beliefs I hold true to heart are that all life is valued.
So that's why I will never have abortion as a plan, and neither does my wife.

But, I also believe church and state should be no where near each other, and I'm appalled that a lot of so called "christians" support Trump.
I also believe the government is for the people by the people.
They should be in the interest of all, therefore laws should be placed for all.
Not everyone has the same beliefs I do, and I know that.
Your convictions are not the same as mine.
 
Joe Mac said:
Reporting in from my tyrannically ruled home. Oh how I wished we didn’t have restricted access to guns 🙄🙄🙄
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I feel like this is the moment where it’s appropriate to laughingly mention that while I was recently being hit on by the husband of a titled person (in front of my wife, no less!) in explaining the kind of person I am and where I come from I explained that I have more guns at home than your average SAS unit. The response he gave me was “I’m sure you do!”
 
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