Political Discussion

[Max Sterling]

Has the legality of that situation been tested or considered?

I know different jurisdictions, but in general we’re less vociferous about perceived infringement of “rights”, but the prevailing opinion in legal circles is that an employer even enquiring about vaccine status is potentially unlawful. That said we do have worker protections too.

Of course this is all very new law and it’s be interesting to see how a court would choose to frame such legal issues if they come before them.

I know specifically the company is allowed to have your vaccination status verified, the same way certain processes, like long term/short term leave or disability, require medical evaluations. They are not allowed to share that information with anyone else, however.

I've heard a couple people joke about faking their cards, since in most cases you just need to provide a picture of it. Hopefully they don't do that, as it's literally a federal crime, on account of that fancy little CDC logo in the corner.

 

[Joe Mac]

Not sure. Have seen some threats that some folks are considering Nov 15 their last day of work, but we'll see if they blink first. There's a townhall tomorrow afternoon to address some of the concerns that have been raised.

The company waited for (my speculation here) a few different signals, including but not limited to: military mandates, other industry leader mandates, the Supreme Court's ruling supporting public university mandates, and guidance from the EEOC. Seems probable to me that there will be a cottage industry of lawyers who make a living off convincing people to mount legal challenges to policies like this, but I doubt many of them will find purchase, so long as employers are making reasonable accommodations for disability/religious exemptions.

Yeah I think the feeling is given EU workers protection and our constitutional jurisprudence that employees have pretty strongly established rights to bodily integrity and/or privacy and that it would be difficult to justify breaching those without legislative cover. That’s presuming that such legislative cover would even be deemed constitutional. Even if it was asking that question and how to store and use the data obtained would be an absolute nightmare under GDPR.

It’s also the bigger picture that while we all want everyone to have COVID vaccines does passing hard law that overrides rights allow for a potentially dodgy precedent to be set for future vaccines/medical procedures. I think there is little appetite to open any of those cans of worms here at the moment.

Thankfully we’re very vaccine compliant here so it’s not so much an issue perhaps. Despite a stalled vaccine campaign and huge initial supply issues we are now upto 75% of the adult population fully vaccinated and have started offering first jabs to the 12-16 cohort.

 

[Joe Mac]

Fair points:
1. The mandate is currently limited only to employees in the states and Puerto Rico.
2. The difference between a statutory mandate and an employment one seems to be quite difficult for some of the workers here to grasp. I think we all share at least some level of discomfort with spotlighting this one part of our medical care as a grounds for termination from our livelihoods. And yet, as Max mentioned, there's right to employment anywhere. This isn't a "gunpoint" mandate, it's a "food on the table" mandate. It's good for business continuity, it's good for our insurance premiums, it's good for the safety of our fellow employees, and, perhaps more cynically, as a pharma giant it's probably also good for the relationship with the FDA as a show of confidence in emergency use authorizations.

Yeah we have must stricter laws surrounding employment and how and why you can release staff. The US multinationals lose their mind when they first arrive. The generous corporate tax regime softens the blow I suppose.

I think you’d end up paying out extraordinary amounts of compensation if you tried to terminate anyone on this type of medical ground over here and that’s how this would be seen. The intersection of strong employee protections and constitutional rights is a hard hurdle to overcome.

No one has shown any apetite to legislate either, probably because they feel it might be deemed unconstitutional.

 

[nolalady]

The pushback against this announcement is...vociferous. Anybody else witnessing the same thing at your own work?

They aren't requiring vaccination at my work.
Most of the people that I work with pivoted to WAH and we have not pivoted back. They have sent out surveys to see if we have gotten vaccinated, but they aren't requiring us to come back to the office, nor are they requiring us to travel for work. We have a large number of retail employees as well that are also not required to be vaccinated.

When we look at vaccination trends, we find that vaccine hesitancy is highest in low wage workers. When they asked them about getting vaccinated, one fourth of these unvaccinated workers say that they will probably or definitely get the vaccine, and the data suggests that two thirds of these unvaccinated people are unsure but receptive to getting the shot.

Vaccination has been politicized, but juggling work schedules and child care could be bigger factors than politics.

• "A lot of low-income workers are working hard to provide food and housing," said Julia Raifman, a health policy professor at Boston University. "That may mean it's hard for them to find a time to get vaccinated."
• Workers also may worry about having to take unpaid time off if they come down with any vaccine side effects. Raifman has heard anecdotal stories of employees receiving less favorable hours if they miss work.

Most unvaccinated people have low incomes

Most low-income workers still want the shot, though.

www.axios.com

I would also like to point out that one third of all vaccine hesitant people are worried about cost.
Congress passed laws barring pharmacies and hospitals from billing patients for coronavirus vaccines. Signs at vaccination sites advertise that the shot is free. From the beginning, health officials and government leaders have told the public it won’t cost anything. And there have been few reports of people experiencing charges.
Even so, some unvaccinated adults cite concerns about a surprise bill as a reason for not getting the shot. Many of them are accustomed to a health system in which the bills are frequent, large and often unexpected.
A recent Kaiser Family Foundation poll found that about a third of unvaccinated adults were unsure whether insurance covered the new vaccine and were concerned they might need to pay for the shot. The concern was especially pronounced among Hispanic and Black survey respondents.

The Covid Vaccine Is Free, but Not Everyone Believes That (Published 2021)

Concern over unexpected bills was one of the reasons respondents in a U.S. survey gave for hesitation about getting the shot.

www.nytimes.com

I bring all of this up because I'm very interested what will happen if my organization requires cashiers to get shots. My guess is that they will not because they don't want to limit their pool of applicants.

Looking at this from a meta-view, I really wonder how many large employers will extend their mandates to low wage workers given the problems they are having with staffing. WalMart is requiring some corporate and management employees to get a vaccine, but they have yet to push this on the cashiers. And yet it's these "essential workers" who are both most likely not to be vaccinated and to be in contact with the general public.

 

[Max Sterling]

They aren't requiring vaccination at my work.
Most of the people that I work with pivoted to WAH and we have not pivoted back. They have sent out surveys to see if we have gotten vaccinated, but they aren't requiring us to come back to the office, nor are they requiring us to travel for work. We have a large number of retail employees as well that are also not required to be vaccinated.

When we look at vaccination trends, we find that vaccine hesitancy is highest in low wage workers. When they asked them about getting vaccinated, one fourth of these unvaccinated workers say that they will probably or definitely get the vaccine, and the data suggests that two thirds of these unvaccinated people are unsure but receptive to getting the shot.

Vaccination has been politicized, but juggling work schedules and child care could be bigger factors than politics.

• "A lot of low-income workers are working hard to provide food and housing," said Julia Raifman, a health policy professor at Boston University. "That may mean it's hard for them to find a time to get vaccinated."
• Workers also may worry about having to take unpaid time off if they come down with any vaccine side effects. Raifman has heard anecdotal stories of employees receiving less favorable hours if they miss work.

Most unvaccinated people have low incomes

Most low-income workers still want the shot, though.

www.axios.com

I would also like to point out that one third of all vaccine hesitant people are worried about cost.
Congress passed laws barring pharmacies and hospitals from billing patients for coronavirus vaccines. Signs at vaccination sites advertise that the shot is free. From the beginning, health officials and government leaders have told the public it won’t cost anything. And there have been few reports of people experiencing charges.
Even so, some unvaccinated adults cite concerns about a surprise bill as a reason for not getting the shot. Many of them are accustomed to a health system in which the bills are frequent, large and often unexpected.
A recent Kaiser Family Foundation poll found that about a third of unvaccinated adults were unsure whether insurance covered the new vaccine and were concerned they might need to pay for the shot. The concern was especially pronounced among Hispanic and Black survey respondents.

The Covid Vaccine Is Free, but Not Everyone Believes That (Published 2021)

Concern over unexpected bills was one of the reasons respondents in a U.S. survey gave for hesitation about getting the shot.

www.nytimes.com

I bring all of this up because I'm very interested what will happen if my organization requires cashiers to get shots. My guess is that they will not because they don't want to limit their pool of applicants.

Looking at this from a meta-view, I really wonder how many large employers will extend their mandates to low wage workers given the problems they are having with staffing. WalMart is requiring some corporate and management employees to get a vaccine, but they have yet to push this on the cashiers. And yet it's these "essential workers" who are both most likely not to be vaccinated and to be in contact with the general public.

Considering the timing of our mandate (In conjunction with a "Return to Office" plan) there has been a lot of outrage from folks who have been in the office the whole time. Many people feel like they only care about the higher paid employees with desk jobs and not us who physically HAVE to be on site to do our jobs. There's a lot of "Why are you only doing this now?"

But this thinking is a bit skewed in my opinion. We've had mask and social distancing mandates, elevator occupancy limits, and heavily reduced and separated staffing. Reintroducing all the PM's and Programmers back into the building lessens the effectiveness of all the precautions we have been taking, so making sure folks are vaccinated now makes sense. Not to mention how much time legal and HR had to spend making sure they could even do it.

 

[nolalady]

Considering the timing of our mandate (In conjunction with a "Return to Office" plan) there has been a lot of outrage from folks who have been in the office the whole time. Many people feel like they only care about the higher paid employees with desk jobs and not us who physically HAVE to be on site to do our jobs. There's a lot of "Why are you only doing this now?"

But this thinking is a bit skewed in my opinion. We've had mask and social distancing mandates, elevator occupancy limits, and heavily reduced and separated staffing. Reintroducing all the PM's and Programmers back into the building lessens the effectiveness of all the precautions we have been taking, so making sure folks are vaccinated now makes sense. Not to mention how much time legal and HR had to spend making sure they could even do it.

I agree. If you are going to require a lot more people to come back in, policies should be put in place to make sure people don't get sick.

I'm concerned that these sort of mandates seem to only be capturing people in a cohort that is already rather vaccine compliant. Whereas the people that are least vaccine compliant as a group, tend to be people with high exposure to the general public. The reasons this group isn't getting vaccinated, in large part, has to do with their ability to leave work to get one, to be able to get off if they are sick from side effects without any negative work repercussions, and are concerned about surprise billing due to them being either uninsured or under insured ( a person who technically has health insurance, but their deductible is so high that they cannot use their health insurance). I feel like we have created a group of people that are so poorly compensated and over worked that it has become a physical barrier to them getting vaccinated. And no one is going to push to mandate vaccines for low wage workers, because businesses are already having a hard time getting people to work.

 

[Chucktshoes]

@Indymisanthrope
Speaking of your work, I was at y’all’s facility in Plainview today. Always a pleasure.

 

[Jan]

Relative of DW journalist killed by the Taliban – DW – 08/19/2021

Journalists and their families are in grave danger in Afghanistan. The Taliban have no compunction about carrying out targeted killings as the case of a DW journalist shows.

www.dw.com

 

[RenegadeMonster]

Texas Democrats' effort to freeze voting bill ends

Texas House Democrats' historic quorum break unexpectedly ended Thursday evening when at least three new Democrats returned to the floor, paving the way for state Republicans to pass restrictive voting legislation.

www.cnn.com

Looks like for at least 3 democrats they had enough and couldn't continue hiding away in DC any longer. The voter suppression bill will now pass as they have a quorum.

 

[Chucktshoes]

Oh look! In case anyone needed any more evidence that the United Nations is a joke, with the Taliban likely to be recognized as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, they will also inherit a seat on the U.N. Women’s Rights Commission and UNESCO.

 

[Dtknuckles]

Oh look! In case anyone needed any more evidence that the United Nations is a joke, with the Taliban likely to be recognized as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, they will also inherit a seat on the U.N. Women’s Rights Commission and UNESCO.

A little part of me thinks it’s a good idea to have them at the table with the grown ups. But then they will just get yelled for playing with their food that they will just get angrier.

 

[yukbon]

A little part of me thinks it’s a good idea to have them at the table with the grown ups. But then they will just get yelled for playing with their food that they will just get angrier.

It will just be a case of arguing with republican faithful: nothing you say will convince them because god has told them they're right, and they already know that you're wrong, since you don't believe what they believe. If facts and common sense worked, there wouldn't be an antivax movement. You could just point to the start of vaccine mistrust being fraudulent studies and how they've been proven false and vaccines have been proven safe, over and over, for decades, and people would accept it and go on with their lives. If god himself told you that women are property that should be subjugated and under man, would you listen to a guy who shows up at a meeting and says "hey, your god is wrong, women are people too, and you can't be cavemen dickheads, we're trying to have a civilization here"?

 

[AnthonyI]

Oh look! In case anyone needed any more evidence that the United Nations is a joke, with the Taliban likely to be recognized as the legitimate government of Afghanistan, they will also inherit a seat on the U.N. Women’s Rights Commission and UNESCO.

Its all bullshit, I'm a very optimistic person generally, but these times have entered Dali-esq visions where nothing makes sense anymore.

 

[nolalady]

Finally a little good news.

A judge has struck down California's ballot measure that exempted Uber and other companies from a state law requiring their drivers to be classified as employees eligible for benefits and job protections.

Alameda County Superior Court Judge Frank Roesch ruled Friday that Proposition 22, which allowed the drivers to be classified as independent contractors, is unconstitutional and can't be enforced.

Proposition 22 passed in November after Uber, Lyft and other app-based services spent $200 million in its favor, making it the most expensive ballot measure in state history.

Judge Rules California Ride-Hailing Exemption Is Unconstitutional

Voters had approved a measure that exempted Uber and other companies from a state law requiring their drivers to be classified as employees eligible for benefits and job protections.

www.npr.org

 

[yukbon]

Finally a little good news.

A judge has struck down California's ballot measure that exempted Uber and other companies from a state law requiring their drivers to be classified as employees eligible for benefits and job protections.

Alameda County Superior Court Judge Frank Roesch ruled Friday that Proposition 22, which allowed the drivers to be classified as independent contractors, is unconstitutional and can't be enforced.

Proposition 22 passed in November after Uber, Lyft and other app-based services spent $200 million in its favor, making it the most expensive ballot measure in state history.

Judge Rules California Ride-Hailing Exemption Is Unconstitutional

Voters had approved a measure that exempted Uber and other companies from a state law requiring their drivers to be classified as employees eligible for benefits and job protections.

www.npr.org

I wonder if they'll pull out of CA entirely. I can't imagine they'll be able to afford to pay them as employees with benefits. "all CA uber drivers now limited to 30 hours a week" is going to go over like a fart in an elevator.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

Finally a little good news.

A judge has struck down California's ballot measure that exempted Uber and other companies from a state law requiring their drivers to be classified as employees eligible for benefits and job protections.

Alameda County Superior Court Judge Frank Roesch ruled Friday that Proposition 22, which allowed the drivers to be classified as independent contractors, is unconstitutional and can't be enforced.

Proposition 22 passed in November after Uber, Lyft and other app-based services spent $200 million in its favor, making it the most expensive ballot measure in state history.

Judge Rules California Ride-Hailing Exemption Is Unconstitutional

Voters had approved a measure that exempted Uber and other companies from a state law requiring their drivers to be classified as employees eligible for benefits and job protections.

www.npr.org

Uber and Lyft are spending big money in Massachusetts on a campaign and ballot measure that would ensure the gig economy stays independent contractors. That ballot measure is to be voted on this November.

They really are pushing the scare tactics that if this doesn't pass and measures similar to what passed in California pass here that it would be the end of the "gig economy" and likely the end of Uber / Lyft service here in Massachusetts.

The whole purpose of the bill is to preserve the status quo of gig workers being contractors and not employees. There for not having to pay salaries or pay for benefits or provide sick pay and vacation time.

And of course they say it's for the benefit for the gig economy worker who can pick and choose their own hours. Also the rider by keeping ride fairs down.

 

[Joe Mac]

I wonder if they'll pull out of CA entirely. I can't imagine they'll be able to afford to pay them as employees with benefits. "all CA uber drivers now limited to 30 hours a week" is going to go over like a fart in an elevator.

Then good riddance. If you can’t afford to pay your employees a fair wage then you don’t deserve to have them. These gig economy companies are exploitative and destructive.

 

[nolalady]

I wonder if they'll pull out of CA entirely. I can't imagine they'll be able to afford to pay them as employees with benefits. "all CA uber drivers now limited to 30 hours a week" is going to go over like a fart in an elevator.

Then good riddance. If you can’t afford to pay your employees a fair wage then you don’t deserve to have them. These gig economy companies are exploitative and destructive.

Agree. If you can't afford to pay your employees a living wage, you do not have a profitable business.

 

[Joe Mac]

Agree. If you can't afford to pay your employees a living wage, you do not have a profitable business.

And this hiding behind self employed is disgusting and disingenuous. If they were genuinely self employed they could pick and chose when and how they work with complete flexibility. That’s generally not the case. They’re tied to restrictive conditions that legally create the employer/employee relationship. When you take out costs of insurance/fuel/maintaining car/appearance standards which all fall on the drivers as they’re “self employed” there are reports from the U.K. market that they’re actually making less than £5 an hour (I’ve seen as low as £3). That’s a long long way below the minimum wage nevermind any concept living one. Cheap taxis/delivery for me aren’t worth that level of exploitation.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

Looks like it's going to be harder to vote by mail this year in Massachusetts.

Instead of requesting an online ballot online for this years elections, (primaries in September and the general election in November), you have to print out an application and mail it into city hall or drop it off at city hall for mail in / absentee ballot. No site that shows the status of your ballot this year either. From requested, to mailed to received and counted.

It looks like anyone can do mail in ballots again this year. But this year they will be given absentee ballots. At least for the Salem City primary election in September.