Political Discussion

jaycee said:
Why would WI vote for Bernie? Why would MI vote for Bernie? Polls are not evidence. Read my post again about social-democratism and how that means something different culturally in the Midwest.
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Because he is pro-unions and anti-free trade. Because he talks about the need for a living wage. Because he openly talks about the need to fight big agriculture and support small farmers. Because his version of going green prioritizes places like WV (where he won big over Clinton in 16') and making sure green jobs / retraining filters into those communities. Because he has an entire portion of his platform dedicated to "revitalizing rural America".

berniesanders.com

Revitalizing Rural America | Bernie Sanders Official Website

Fundamental change in America’s agricultural and rural policies is no longer just an option; it’s an absolute necessity. With the right support and policies, we can have rural communities that are thriving economically and ecologically.
berniesanders.com berniesanders.com

The word socialism might be problematic in portions of the midwest, but the policies themselves are popular. And (based off the many Nevadans I spoke to in the rural, northern portion of the state- which is the portion of the state that he did very well in) a lot of people find him authentic and true to his word even if they don't like the word socialism.
 
I'm just gonna throw a link to this book up here for anyone that might be interested. Because while I am also over this particular conversation, the term neoliberalism is most certainly not just a media buzzword (ala libtard), it's a political ideology of the center. One of privatization, deregulation, globalization and for-profit wars that has dominated western politics for 40+ years.

A Brief History of Neoliberalism - Kindle edition by Harvey, David. Politics & Social Sciences Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

A Brief History of Neoliberalism - Kindle edition by Harvey, David. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading A Brief History of Neoliberalism.
www.amazon.com
 
Interesting interview with one of the women who accused Joe Biden of sexual harassment tonight on the Nightly News.

Basically, the women says Joe Biden truly does not understand what sexual harassment is. He grew up in a different time and what he did would have been acceptable / wouldn't have been sexual harassment 30 to 40 years ago in the work place. She believes he's answering the questions as he believes the truth to be. But times have changed and you can't do certain things anymore.

Because of that, she is not bothered by Joe Biden denying that he did anything wrong publicly. She said she would even still vote for him if the 2020 election was between Biden and Trump.
 
I hate the financial institutions of America.

I know Bank of America was sued for this and had to make a payout recently.

Banks process debits before credits to maximize fees.

Last night all my auto payments were taken out of my bank account prior to them crediting my direct deposit. Result, 3 NSF fees of $35 for a total of $105.

Calling them and bitching went no where. They were like you didn't have the funds in your account plain and simple. Everything went in and out at 12:00 am. So why should I be on the hook if they took the money out for my auto payments before they put the money in from my direct deposit / paycheck.
 
I'm just gonna throw up this .gif for anyone who wants a smile..

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This is my stance on 2020.

There are qualities in each candidate I like, and qualities in each I dislike. That being said, I still haven’t decided who I’m “all in” for. I’m pretty sure it won’t be Bernie or Biden....I have my reasons, which, IMO, is irrelevant to my bigger point, which is whomever is THE candidate will get my 100% support. Yes, I want that candidate to be the one who has the best chance of beating DJT.

I live in deep red Montana. I have farily progressive ideals, but that doesn’t mean that’s what Montana wants. Last November I had a candidate running for Senate I really liked, but felt she was too progressive. If I wanted a Dem to get that seat, we needed to get vote of the Republican who didn’t like DJT, and someone too progressive wouldn’t pull them over and get their vote. Lo and behold, Kathleen Williams won the primary against two candidates I thought COULD beat Gianforte, and like I predicted, lost the election. If one of the more middle-of-the-road democratic men had won the primary, I firmly believe he would have beat Gianforte.

If it’s Biden, so be it. If it’s Bernie, so be it. Tearing other candidates down is counterproductive to the larger cause.
 
Adding to the mountain of statistical evidence showing the severity of U.S. inequality, an analysis published Friday found that the top one percent of Americans gained $21 trillion in wealth since 1989 while the bottom 50 percent lost $900 billion.

www.commondreams.org

'Eye-Popping': Analysis Shows Top 1% Gained $21 Trillion in Wealth Since 1989 While Bottom Half Lost $900 Billion | Common Dreams

"The top one percent owns nearly $30 trillion of assets while the bottom half owns less than nothing."
www.commondreams.org www.commondreams.org
 
jaycee said:
If I were in your shoes in MT I might feel differently - you're in a difficult spot and have an interesting story to tell.

I'm tired of settling for elect-ability. I'm guessing @DownIsTheNewUp agrees with me on that point at least :whistle:. Biden is scummy and I would feel like I was throwing my vote away to vote for him. I would feel less ill about voting for any other dem candidate.

We need to be able to be critical of candidates so that we can make the most informed decision. We need to be just as critical of the person we are pulling for as the opponents.
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I agree with you to a point. If I had my way, we’d have free health care, free education, far stricter gun regulations, Citizens’ United would be repealed, and women could do whatever the fuck they wanted with their bodies. Unfortunately, I have to realize that I *may* have to make concessions in order to take the power back from the GOP. I would LOVE it if my Republican-but-Trump-hating relatives/MT neighbors would vote for any of the Dem nominees, but if Warren wins the nom, I just don’t see that happening. DJT has done such a good job demonizing her that If Warren wins the nom, I firmly believe Trump wins again. (Not sure about that scenario with Bernie). However, if a more moderate candidate wins, I believe Dems win in 2020. I sincerely wish I was wrong, I’m certainly not all gung ho for Biden.....but if he wins the nom, you bet your ass he gets my vote.
 
Sonicpharmacist said:
I agree with you to a point. If I had my way, we’d have free health care, free education, far stricter gun regulations, Citizens’ United would be repealed, and women could do whatever the fuck they wanted with their bodies. Unfortunately, I have to realize that I *may* have to make concessions in order to take the power back from the GOP. I would LOVE it if my Republican-but-Trump-hating relatives/MT neighbors would vote for any of the Dem nominees, but if Warren wins the nom, I just don’t see that happening. DJT has done such a good job demonizing her that If Warren wins the nom, I firmly believe Trump wins again. (Not sure about that scenario with Bernie). However, if a more moderate candidate wins, I believe Dems win in 2020. I sincerely wish I was wrong, I’m certainly not all gung ho for Biden.....but if he wins the nom, you bet your ass he gets my vote.
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This is the argument that was handed to me by Clinton supporters in 2016. And by Kerry supporters in 04.

How'd that work out again?

Meanwhile that same argument was (as I mentioned elsewhere) used against Jared Polis' in the primaries for Governor. Pretty sure he won the general by double digits and has gotten more done (as it pertains to real change) for the state in 7 months than the the 2 previous (centrist) Governors got done in their entire terms.
 
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I posted this briefly b4 yanking it because friends and former profs I sent it to for notes encouraged me to search for publication but that hasn't gone anywhere so...

docs.google.com

Pop Stars, Biden and Climate Change: Or Learning to Embrace the Existential and Enjoy the Dread

Pop Stars, Climate Change and Joe Biden: Or Learning to Embrace the Existential and Enjoy the Dread by Casey Black One of my favorite musician’s of this decade is Vancouver electro-pop queen Grimes (Claire Boucher) who has made a career of mining the genre for its eccentricities. When her major...
docs.google.com docs.google.com
 
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DownIsTheNewUp said:
This is the argument that was handed to me by Clinton supporters in 2016. And by Kerry supporters in 04.

How'd that work out again?

Meanwhile that same argument was (as I mentioned elsewhere) used against Jared Polis' in the primaries for Governor. Pretty sure he won the general by double digits and has gotten more done (as it pertains to real change) for the state in 7 months than the the 2 previous (centrist) Governors got done in their entire terms.
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There are MANY reasons it didn’t work out for HRC. She was a terrible candidate. Republicans hated her with a passion, as did many progressives, with good reason. Despite all those flaws, I still voted for her because I felt it was my duty as a voter to do what I could to keep DJT out of office. Many progressives didn’t and voted third party, essentially throwing their vote away.

Do you really believe the average moderate Republican is going to vote for a progressive candidate who wants free healthcare and free education at the expense of their taxes going up? Republicans as a rule don’t care about anyone but themselves. Living in a red flyover state, I see it every day. Trust me, if most of my coworkers have to choose between Trump and Warren or Bernie, they’re gonna vote for DJT again. If it’s between Biden and DJT, Biden gets it.

Remember, MT voted for a big money bully who assaulted a reporter instead of a female progressive.
 
Sonicpharmacist said:
There are MANY reasons it didn’t work out for HRC. She was a terrible candidate. Republicans hated her with a passion, as did many progressives, with good reason. Despite all those flaws, I still voted for her because I felt it was my duty as a voter to do what I could to keep DJT out of office. Many progressives didn’t and voted third party, essentially throwing their vote away.

Do you really believe the average moderate Republican is going to vote for a progressive candidate who wants free healthcare and free education at the expense of their taxes going up? Republicans as a rule don’t care about anyone but themselves. Living in a red flyover state, I see it every day. Trust me, if most of my coworkers have to choose between Trump and Warren or Bernie, they’re gonna vote for DJT again. If it’s between Biden and DJT, Biden gets it.

Remember, MT voted for a big money bully who assaulted a reporter instead of a female progressive.
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Again, it wasnt just Clinton. Kerry lost against an unpopular president despite being the safe moderate. Walter Mondale got blown out.

In 08' Obama (hands down the most progressive option since Carter) won with a coalition of high youth turnout, high minority turnout and independents who were mad about Iraq. In 2012 it was literally the youth vote that won him the election by swinging numerous swing states.

Republicans are only 30-35 percent of the registered voting base and most of them are not moderate. Moderate Republicans don't matter just as they didnt with Obama. What matters is independents (who voted for Bernie is extremely high #'s during the primary and were the main reason Clinton lost), turning out non-voters, flipping some working class whites in rust belt areas, turning out people under 40 in high numbers and motivating people who typically don't typically vote due to apathy (which is what Trump did in 16 and is the reason polling was so off).

Pandering to moderate Republicans only worked for Bill Clinton. Then his presidency abandoned working people and unions while widening economic disparity. And that economic disparity (plus Fox News) have further polarized the bases.

For the record, Bernie polls very well against Trump in swing states. Better than anyone but Biden. And nearly every Dem polls ahead of Trump according to the most recent data.

I'd be curious for your thought on my article which is not about electability but is about why Biden is such a good awful option.
 
jaycee said:
While this may be the story for Dem voters in MT and some other places I don't think it's the case in many less red states.




HRC lost because she lost the narrative not because she wasn't an eminently capable candidate. She lost because enough people bought into various stories and/or people couldn't see the forest through the trees because they felt burnt that Bernie got screwed by the DNC / they were obsessed with her flaws / they didn't think Donny had a snowballs chance in hell.

The narrative that she was a terrible candidate is b.s. and the narrative that her ties to wall street / whatever conspiracy theory people believe allowed Trump to win the electoral college is also b.s.

The Dems don't need Republican votes to win. They need turnout and I think it's a mistake for that party to think that Trump voters will flip-flop. Some might not vote, but very few are going to change teams.

Having a candidate that is someone people will be excited about is more important than policy, party, or whether or not they're an illiterate racist. The average citizen will never really research anything and will vote for whatever team they already align themselves with or whomever is they can be most excited about.

The average citizen completely distrusts the government, particularly the federal government. Every one of them thinks they reached the decision to distrust government honestly, but they have been sold a narrative of distrust for several decades now and the propaganda campaign has worked...

What I'm saying is that people are much more optimistic about their decision making ability than they should be (there's plenty of economic research that points to this) and politics, particularly presidential candidates, are just part of the same poor decision making process of the average citizen.

Everything is a bell curve and in this case, regardless of party affiliation or team, the area under the curve is occupied mostly by people that are just going to vote for the person they like better (if they vote at all).
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The right distrusts government. The left distrusts money in politics but not government itself. Which is why polling for government heavy programs and leftist economic policy are polling at an all-time yet a huge chunk of the (far left) base names money in politics as a top issue and badly want to be rid of people like Nancy Pelosi and Chucky boy. Unfortunately, the $$$ they take makes it really difficult to push them out.

www.google.com

America’s Political Mood Is Now the ‘Most Liberal Ever Recorded’

But the electorate’s liberal mood may be less significant than the leftward shift in the economic consensus among policy wonks.
www.google.com www.google.com

As expected, I deeply disagree that policy had nothing to with why Clinton lost and/or that past votes or decisions of her husband didnt play a hand.

Iraq, NAFTA, gutting glass-stegall were all deeply unpopular and things I heard brought up on the regular while canvassing. And it was certainly of major concern to Bernie's base.

But I agree with much of what you are saying.
 
jaycee said:
That's a very simplified take on past democratic losses. Mondale lost because of cult of personality and the oil crisis narrative. Kerry loss because the republican narrative about his war time service and the Heinz family dollars, and the narrative that sticking with Bush for another term at a time of war was safer. Obama won because people were tired of the war and how America's image had been tarnished globally and he got out the youth and minority vote. Trump won because of the Clinton narrative and propaganda and a failure to excite the youth and minority vote. None of these people won or lost because of their moderate policies or lack thereof.
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I didnt say it was the only reason. That doesnt change the fact that pushing the moderate has repeatedly failed us in the recent past.

And as one of those youth during 08, I promise you the reason the youth turnout was high and the activists engaged was because of how progressive he was compared to Clinton. It's the same reason more people under 35 voted for Bernie than Clinton or Trump combined.
 
DownIsTheNewUp said:
Again, it wasnt just Clinton. Kerry lost against an unpopular president despite being the safe moderate. Walter Mondale got blown out.

In 08' Obama (hands down the most progressive option since Carter) won with a coalition of high youth turnout, high minority turnout and independents who were mad about Iraq. In 2012 it was literally the youth vote that won him the election by swinging numerous swing states.

Republicans are only 30-35 percent of the registered voting base and most of them are not moderate. Moderate Republicans don't matter just as they didnt with Obama. What matters is independents (who voted for Bernie is extremely high #'s during the primary and were the main reason Clinton lost), turning out non-voters, flipping some working class whites in rust belt areas, turning out people under 40 in high numbers and motivating people who typically don't typically vote due to apathy (which is what Trump did in 16 and is the reason polling was so off).

Pandering to moderate Republicans only worked for Bill Clinton. Then his presidency abandoned working people and unions while widening economic disparity. And that economic disparity (plus Fox News) have further polarized the bases.

For the record, Bernie polls very well against Trump in swing states. Better than anyone but Biden. And nearly every Dem polls ahead of Trump according to the most recent data.

I'd be curious for your thought on my article which is not about electability but is about why Biden is such a good awful option.
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You make some excellent points. I completely agree that turnout is the key. And I did see that every Dem polled ahead of DJT.

Maybe things in MT are different than other states. We are a red state that overwhelmingly voted for Trump, yet we have a three term Democratic governor in Steve Bullock. And, despite all the negative attention he got, Jon Tester was re-elected.

I suppose my larger point is this: I will vote with my heart in the primaries, with my head in the general.
 
jaycee said:
Son, you have not spent enough time in the Midwest if you think that reds are the only people that distrust government.

Most of those policy "issues" you point out the average American doesn't know the story about. What they know is what they see on tv and facebook or hear on their Sinclair controlled radio outlet.
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To you first point, that could be. I have spent extensive time in Minnesota and Wisconsin (where my dad is from) but not muchwhere else.

The second point I disagree (which is fine). Again, those policy issues (NAFTA especially) came up over and over when I was on the ground in rural NV (I know it's not the midwest but it's an area with a cowboy, libertarian streak) or calling states like Ohio, Missouri, Michigan or Iowa (I held repeated phone banking parties to those states. And we didn't have a registration list either).

Also, anyone who is watching Fox or getting their news from Sinclair is not a Dem at this point. And the people who watch CNN or MSNBC are Clinton's base and the people who show up and vote blindly for her.

I actually think one of the main reasons Millenials are so much more liberal is because most of us view sources like CNN and MSNBC are corporate trash.

Edit: I'd add that the fact that Bermie wasn't taking Super Pac money and was built around small donors (and the vice versa of that for Clinton) also regularly came up when I was phone banking. And that these were topics that Bernie built his campaign around (speeches, debates, what his many volunteers were passionate about) so the campaign itself was bringing a ton of attention to them and making people aware.
 
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DownIsTheNewUp said:
Also, anyone who is watching Fox or getting their news from Sinclair is not a Dem at this point. And the people who watch CNN or MSNBC are Clinton's base and the people who show up and vote blindly for her.
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I watch MSNBC. I think Chuck Todd is a hack, and I despise Chris Matthews. Other than them, I think MSNBC is alright. Yeah, I voted for HRC in 2016 (and I’d do it again to save us from the Republican party), but I did not “blindly” vote for her, and I most certainly am not part of her base.
 
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