Political Discussion

RenegadeMonster said:
Well, that stinks...
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see-myself-out.gif
 
gaporter said:
Only skimming through this thread, but imo @Lee Newman hit the nail on the head in regards to this whole debate about a page or so ago:

The "pro-life" branding that anti-abortion groups like to use is nothing more than a plastic and self-righteous way for them to pretend their stance is in any way about helping children, when we consistently see the same right-wing nutjobs who propagate this kind of rhetoric have very little regard for the wellbeing of America's youth. I can't imagine how terrifying it is to be a kid in today's school system or even just society in general, and I'm among the younger members on here. There's just no talking reason to a political stance that says "we're going to force a child to be born, consequences be damned" and then turns around and refuses to do anything to ensure that the child can live a safe, happy life in this country.

If these people actually cared about the youth of America, they'd enact gun control, stop fearmongering about LGBT+ issues (because organized religion has no history of manipulating children), and work to better support the lower-class which - surprise surprise - is what most of these kids are going to born into. Does anyone seriously believe that trying to restrict abortion rights will hurt any of the elites that put it into power? They don't play by the same rules, they don't have to worry about the impoverishment they put Americans in, they won't ever have to be a part of it. Taking away human rights is just those at the top's way of confirming to us what we already know; the authority in this country doesn't need our support or approval, we just get to sit back angry and powerless while geniuses like our new friend here go to bat for the fall of democracy with arms wide open.

I don't wade into this thread very often because quite frankly I see enough bullshit elsewhere on social media and when it comes to politics I no longer feel like taking the whole "when they go low, we go high" approach. That shit flat out doesn't work and isn't helpful for anyone. I'm angry and scared for the future of this country and I don't think that any amount of playing nice is ever going to cover up the fact that "the other side" will not hesitate to take their persecution of American citizens to new levels while "our side" is just as corrupt and ineffectual and just rolls over and surrenders whenever they see injustice happening. I don't care how reasonable or respectful someone appears to be when what they're talking about is taking someone else's rights away.
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I don’t understand something. @User190425 has an argument on just about every person’s comments except this one. She hit the nail on the head here, and crickets from Chuck. I think @Bull Shannon was right, Chuck is a troll and debates in bad faith.
 
User190425 said:
I believe you have this exactly backwards. Your rights flow not from society, but from the fact that you are a sentient and conscious human being. If you wish to call that “because” so be it. Our entire system of government is based on the concepts of natural law. Contained therein is the idea that each human life has intrinsic value and deserves protection. It has spent most of its existence not living up to that ideal, yet has continually improved in moving towards that end.

Governments (political means) only justly exist to recognize and act as guarantors to protect your rights. They do not grant them. To claim otherwise is to declare as legitimate every horrendous action undertaken by one group of people against another throughout all of history.

If you don’t believe that each human life has value, then let me ask these questions.

What makes murder wrong? Is it?
What makes slavery wrong? Is it?
What makes rape wrong? Is it?
What makes the ideas of eugenicists such as the mentally ill, disabled, or otherwise “non-productive” people should be sterilized or killed wrong? Are they?

I’m not asking this in a snarky or disingenuous way. The belief that each and every human life holds value and should be protected is such a foundational pillar of my worldview that I am legitimately struggling to understand your position as I believe it can justify all of these things I asked above.
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Rights are an invented construct of humans. They do not exist without people agreeing on them in some way.

Show me rights in nature, please. I'd like to see examples outside of what humans invented.
 
djdavedk said:
Rights are an invented construct of humans. They do not exist without people agreeing on them in some way.

Show me rights in nature, please. I'd like to see examples outside of what humans invented.
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So this is where I think Natural is a bad modifier for rights. Mostly because anything that occurs in reality follows the laws of the universe. There is just no way around it. Humans have the ability to remember, have intentions, use symbols to tell stories, and can predict the future. Some animals can do some of these things, but we don’t give them the same rights. It’s a scientific fact that embryos can’t do all of these things. Someday they will if they stay alive. Why should they be protected in the same way a developed human is with all its facilities? And why aren’t animals with similar facilities protected in the same way as a fetus?
 
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