Political Discussion

In addition, more then ever, young voters don't have an interest in voting. We may see record low turnout for 18 year olds this year.

As I posted earlier, a lot of high school teachers were very surprised, and concerned when asking their class if the voting age were changed to 16, would they vote in the 2024 election and where shocked to find not a single student said yes. All have said "this has never happened before".
TBF, the young have rarely voted in great numbers and there are less 18 year olds now than there have been as Americas median age continues to grow older with each passing year. Millennials were the largest generation of young people ever numbers have been receding since Gen Z reached voting age.
 
They were, though. School shootings, Covid, and BLM all had direct impact to student life. Immigration, Muslim bans, climate change policy & deregulation, gender affirming care, reproductive care, loan debt forgiveness -- all of this is important to young people. The occupant of the Oval Office probably had a more direct & significant impact to students since 2016 than at any other point in the last half century. Now, do they want to be participants in this system? Maybe not. But they've been paying attention.
I promise you for every one activist on any one of those topics, there were thousands more that were just like “why can’t we have our prom?”
 
True, but voters who are that easy to dissuade can also be dissuaded by weather, or traffic, or waiting in the McDonald's drive-through line so long it eats up the few minutes they had allocated to going to the polls. If people like that are ignoring the national conversation, they're ignoring the national conversation. They're not the all-important "likely voter" in the first place, right?

Insisting that an octogenarian perform feats of strength to reassure us just plays into the strongman narrative that only benefits Trump. Frankly, even though I thought his performance as a debater was abysmal, I saw no indication that his comprehension was diminished in the slightest. But we keep insisting that he "do something" to prove that he isn't what he is, which is older and slower than he used to be. The president's job isn't to trade barbs with a deranged smoothbrain, which is fortunate, because Biden isn't good at that anymore. But he's still a savvy negotiator who continues to deliver some measure of policy wins. Isn't that what we actually want?

If this election comes down to who projects more youth, then you're all correct, and this is a lost cause, because time cannot be undone. We will only be disappointed if we keep holding our breath and wishing that he will show up to a podium and be the loudest/wittiest/most energetic. But that's the wrong criterion to focus on IMO.
Being sharp and cogent is hardly a feat of strength. The public isn’t asking him to lift boulders I am asking him to be able to hold a constructive two way conversation with another individual either in public or on camera. Being old doesn’t mean he’s not up to the task but If he is not able to accomplish that bare minimum then the Dems should move on to a candidate who can. Full stop.
 
Circling back to explicitly second this. We're basically venting our anxieties to each other by speculating about what other people might be thinking.
But we all live in our siloed echo chambers at this point. So it comes down to who is yelling loudest. The Trumpers are getting fed whatever their algorithm feeds them which will be Trump is great and the savior of the world despite media’s attempt to prove otherwise.

The fact that a lot of people get their news from Tik Tok absolutely boggles my mind.
 
You know what's really crazy is that 2 months ago we were discussing whether Biden's Israel-Gaza war policy was going to tank his candidacy because he was equivocating about whether the loss of innocent lives was an appropriate expense to pay for overall maintenance of a strategic alliance with Israel and corresponding US-sponsored stability in the Middle East.

Then he has a bad night on live TV and now we all need him to prove that he can finish a sentence? He's old, yeah, but this is all starting to feel a little bit unserious to me.
The Biden administration working with the “deep state” is more than capable of keeping government/democracy running as well as it has been for the next 4 years. The issue is Biden’s candidacy. It’s much more difficult to claim competency if the figurehead that voters are being asked to vote for is shows himself to be addled during public moments where he is expected to give the air of a decisive leader. If Biden cannot provide that assurance and there are others who could while keeping much of Biden administration framework in place then it seems like that would be the best direction to go?
 
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Lots of discussion above, but yes I do know people who have said that they will not vote now and two of my students said that they planned to vote for Biden but will now vote for Trump. Are they informed? No. They're trying a little bit to be, but they don't put much of any effort into thinking for themselves about the consequences of their actions. They like Trump's fighting spirit and they think Biden is a liar. I can't really have a serious talk with them on the subject because it would cross some educator lines, but I do encourage them to research certain things and try to put the election in a wider historical context than the six months of their life that they suddenly decided they care a little.
 
The Obama campaign did wonders for getting youth involved, but Biden made it pretty clear last time that he doesn't give a shit about young people. And he's taken no real steps to court their vote. The paternalistic side of him really hurts there. And even though Trump is worse, he is well versed in blowing smoke up people's asses. And young people need a little of that to motivate them.
 
I honestly don’t think the dems know what to do. I certainly haven’t seen a lot of talk about who should be the candidate from dems, just Biden should get out of the way.
 
I honestly don’t think the dems know what to do. I certainly haven’t seen a lot of talk about who should be the candidate from dems, just Biden should get out of the way.
The replacement part is moot until Biden decides to bow out. I personally would like to see them release all delegates and have a contested convention to determine the nominees.
 
The replacement part is moot until Biden decides to bow out. I personally would like to see them release all delegates and have a contested convention to determine the nominees.
I don’t really think it is though. This seems all fairly unprecedented to me. I still think Harrison could do more if he wanted to. Biden doesn’t actually chair the party, just like Trump doesn’t actually chair the Republicans. They are the public face of party leadership but not the actual leadership.
 
this is all starting to feel a little bit unserious to me
You nailed it. It's exactly why fact-checking Trump does no good. His latest rallies with him riffing on airports and electric boats doesn't seem to dissuade his voters either. Even if the Dems had a whip-smart bulldog for a debate session against him, no 'loss' would stick. I have been feeling so hopeless about all of this for awhile.
 
Beyond the immediate situation with Biden I'd almost rather my presidents didn't always project an air of self-confidence. A bit of humility and deference to experts goes a long way with me in making sure we've elected someone who knows their limits and listens to the people who know better. But I know that doesn't count for a lot with everybody.
I agree with this whole heartedly, if optics didn’t matter Hillary Clinton woulda been president in 2016.
 
Points taken. Optics count for a lot even when they don't need to. POTUS doesn't *need* to be a camera-ready TV personality, but the reality of the political landscape makes it necessary.

Beyond the immediate situation with Biden I'd almost rather my presidents didn't always project an air of self-confidence. A bit of humility and deference to experts goes a long way with me in making sure we've elected someone who knows their limits and listens to the people who know better. But I know that doesn't count for a lot with everybody.


What's your take on how likely those people were to actually vote before all this started? That's the tricky bit for me, separating people's characterizations of what they would do versus what they would do in reality.
Hard to say. They are only now at the age where they can vote and they're already pretty apathetic about the whole thing. Most are still heavily influenced by their parents and there's a lot of Trump voters around here. The odd thing is that both of the students who said this to me are Black. They really don't see a big difference between Trump and Biden. Biden really dropped the ball with Black voters. He got a bit of a pass because of Obama last time, but I think it's fair to say neither party has really done much of anything to help fix the problems in black communities. And it's tough to convince them as a white guy that I agree with them, but that one side is actively working against them while the other is just not doing anything. Even as we talk about it in their courses many still just have knee jerk reactions. Most don't really even understand what conservative or liberal/Republican or Democrat even mean. They are one or the other because that's what they've been told they should be. "Some" of the youth are trying to get active. Of those there is a minority that is hardcore Trumpian, but they turn off a lot of their peers because they're extremist about it like it's a gang or a cult. And a lot can see through their idiocy. The problem is that they know Trump supporters who aren't like that, so they don't see them as actually representative of what Trump is advocating for. The other side is larger, and is mostly women who have gotten "slightly" more political because overturning abortion directly impacts them even if they don't agree with getting one (at the moment). How that all translates comes election day is anyone's guess. I think those who are most passionate on both sides will get to the polls. And I think most of the students, even those who say they'll vote one way or the other, will only go vote if there's nothing else going on that day and the line isn't that long. They just don't see the point. I started asking my students about a decade ago if they thought democracy was worth saving. Less than half did for the first few years I asked. Toward the end of Trump that number rose back up to about 60% saying we needed to save it, and last semester it was down to about 30% again. They don't know what the alternative is, but they have no allegiance to American style electoral politics. I don't know the answer. When I was in college I was far more engaged and involved in activist communities than a lot of my peers, but I don't even see activist groups on campus anymore other than the alt-right ones. It's depressing.
 
Serious question. My dad is a Vietnam veteran who is a self-proclaimed Constitutional conservative and while he wears his service on his sleeve, I have always been proud of how he fought for our country….that is until he proudly proclaimed his support of Trump in 2016. He knows my disdain for Trump, but we don’t really talk politics, so I don’t know where he stands now (my presumption is he is still drinking the KoolAid based on comments he’s made). Considering my dad’s love of the Constitution, I want to know what he thinks about Cheetolini’s admission that he wants to tear it apart, how he would be be a dictator on day 1 if he wins. I would also like him to know that if he still supports DJT despite those things, that I am ashamed of him, that he is turning his back on his former self and his country….I just don’t know if it would be a productive conversation.

Thoughts?
You know, I used to just ignore those conversations with family because they don't seem to go anywhere. But the last few years I've gone the opposite direction. I feel a need to stand up to family now when I see them doing something that is genuinely harmful to our country and the world their children and grandchildren inherit. I've cut some off because life is too short to tolerate hate. I don't have a lot of family still alive, but for me it's a question of how can I accept the love of those who spew hate towards those I love? I stopped speaking to my grandfather years ago because of his racism. I have Black sisters and an Asian sister. Am I going to put him over the dignity and respect my sisters and other folks deserve? Hell no. So I call him and others out on it. If they won't reign in their hateful comments then they don't get me in their life. I'm not the one losing out because what do I get out of a relationship with a person like that? They lose out and they complain on social media to whoever will hear, but they're only alone because they've been awful to people who otherwise they could have had loving relationships with. If they are willing to put Trump over their grandkids, then screw them. I know that won't sit right with a lot of people, but personally I think we're past the point where we need to take moral stands even when it hurts. Because if we don't, who will?

Edit: and don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those people who goes out and picks fights with them. But if they bring up politics or say something prejudiced, I don't shy away from that confrontation and ignore it anymore.
 
You know, I used to just ignore those conversations with family because they don't seem to go anywhere. But the last few years I've gone the opposite direction. I feel a need to stand up to family now when I see them doing something that is genuinely harmful to our country and the world their children and grandchildren inherit. I've cut some off because life is too short to tolerate hate. I don't have a lot of family still alive, but for me it's a question of how can I accept the love of those who spew hate towards those I love? I stopped speaking to my grandfather years ago because of his racism. I have Black sisters and an Asian sister. Am I going to put him over the dignity and respect my sisters and other folks deserve? Hell no. So I call him and others out on it. If they won't reign in their hateful comments then they don't get me in their life. I'm not the one losing out because what do I get out of a relationship with a person like that? They lose out and they complain on social media to whoever will hear, but they're only alone because they've been awful to people who otherwise they could have had loving relationships with. If they are willing to put Trump over their grandkids, then screw them. I know that won't sit right with a lot of people, but personally I think we're past the point where we need to take moral stands even when it hurts. Because if we don't, who will?
This encapsulates a lot of my feelings, as well as why I bristle at the notion that "we're so divided" in America, as though the blame is mutual and equal. From where I sit things are certainly contentious, but one side is being contentious in the name of hate and actively destroying the lives of many innocent people. Is it truly uncivil to refuse to sit at the table with someone who doesn't see me as a human?
 
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