Sutherland Club House
- Thread starter AnthonyI
- Start date
OMC
Well-Known Member
What are your impressions?
MikeH
Well-Known Member
What are you doing instead??
ngower
Well-Known Member
I’ve had a 20/20 for a month or two now, was holding onto the Insight for a potential second system/dedicated mono table/etc. Bought a v expensive new media console so selling the Insight to soften the blow.
MikeH
Well-Known Member
Ohhh right. Forgot you had both! I have both too but ended up using them on my two setups
did sell an old phono last week though that had served me well
ngower
Well-Known Member
I mean I *could* hold onto it still, it isn't a requirement to sell it to offset the cost, but it just seems like a reasonable time to part with it. In reality I don't need it as my apartment is barely fitting my primary system. I also work from home and live alone so if I want to listen to records and work I can just....go to the living room...Ohhh right. Forgot you had both! I have both too but ended up using them on my two setups
What was going to fund a 1200G instead funded the BDI, I'll have to settle for my lowly PEASANT 1210GR until then. (I like my GR)
MikeH
Well-Known Member
so glad you grabbed it. i experienced something similar when i made the jump to the sutherlands!
love that plinth on your table too!
ngower
Well-Known Member
The thing I noticed most with the Sutherland is how well it captures channel separation and soundstage. It just makes everything feel like it’s precisely where it needs to be and you can hear the stereo sound come through so much more noticeably while not being like clinical or anything.
Angsty
Well-Known Member
ngower
Well-Known Member
Useful correction to some of my prior posting here after an exchange with Ron:
The 20/20 (or a least my 20/20, seems like design changes over the years may make this not universal) is more or less zero capacitance. I was coming from the Insight which has 220 so was assuming I couldn't use carts like the 540ML without burning my ear drums off.
The 20/20 (or a least my 20/20, seems like design changes over the years may make this not universal) is more or less zero capacitance. I was coming from the Insight which has 220 so was assuming I couldn't use carts like the 540ML without burning my ear drums off.
displayname
Well-Known Member
So what does a zero capacitance phonostage equate to from a practical point?
ngower
Well-Known Member
Moving magnet cartridges are designed to operate ideally within a set capacitance range, measured in picofarads (pF). The Audio Technica 540ML is notorious example of a cartridge being very sensitive to capacitance, and thus causing some folks to lessen the capacitance of their interconnects to get the cartridge to play nice. The 540ML works best with 100-200pF being ideal, and going over 200 can cause some brightness, both measurable and audible. Having 0 added capacitance by your phono stage means the tonearm wiring and TT>phono interconnects are the only things adding capacitance. Having adjustable input capacitance is nice, having zero is probably the next best thing.
displayname
Well-Known Member
Amazing explanation, thank you!
I keep letting my eyes wonder to other phonos, but things like this just keep bringing me back.
Angsty
Well-Known Member
This is an advantage of a high output MC cartridge - MCs are mostly insensitive to capacitance.
When I used MMs, I purchased a Blue Jeans Cable LC-1 interconnect for the cartridge to the phonostage path; LC-1 cable has unusually low capacitance. It produced a subjectively better result from a Sutherland Insight when using Ortofon 2M cartridges.
The 20/20 is a different beast, though. It was rated Class A by Stereophile when it was introduced, indicating exceptional top-tier performance. From what others have written here, the performance may be improved still when using a SUT with conventional Sutherland phonos.
Edit: Of course, one typically uses a SUT with a low-output MC - not a MM.
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ngower
Well-Known Member
Insight is 220, so the LC-1 (plus tonearm) would likely keep you right under 300 (which the 2M like). Going to the Insight you probably were operating with like 100 pf which is just below their recommended range and it might actually benefit to use a slightly higher capacitance cable to stay around 150. The 2M series don't seem as sensitive to it as the AT carts though.
ALso worth adding MI carts (Grado, Nagaoka, etc) are similar to MCs insofar as how they (mostly) don't care about cap.
Angsty
Well-Known Member
I've read that Nagaokas are also capacitance sensitive, whereas Grados are not. Here is a translated passage from a German audio article:
"In practice, the Nagaokas and Goldrings behave exactly like MM systems. They need a high-resistance, low-capacitance termination (47kΩ, <200pF) and react to a too-high capacitance like their magnet brothers with a brittle, brilliant sound. The panacea for problem case [high capacitance] phono inputs are the low-inductance MIs from Grado, which are more suitable."
I have a Nagaoka MP-300, but I don't recall using it on the Insight before I sold the phono.
"In practice, the Nagaokas and Goldrings behave exactly like MM systems. They need a high-resistance, low-capacitance termination (47kΩ, <200pF) and react to a too-high capacitance like their magnet brothers with a brittle, brilliant sound. The panacea for problem case [high capacitance] phono inputs are the low-inductance MIs from Grado, which are more suitable."
I have a Nagaoka MP-300, but I don't recall using it on the Insight before I sold the phono.
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ngower
Well-Known Member
Hence “mostly”
They aren’t as sensitive as MM carts but generally need to keep it close to the suggest cap range