The NBA Thread

[wmeugene]

I mean it is absolutely nonsensical in every way imaginable. I cannot even begin to fathom what they think they're doing.

100% agree. Even if you just trade the FVV/Trent contracts just to get something instead of losing them. I think they could have gotten a 1st rounder easily for them or traded them to one of the teams that was trying to gain financial flexibility.

 

[wmeugene]

100% agree. Even if you just trade the FVV/Trent contracts just to get something instead of losing them. I think they could have gotten a 1st rounder easily for them or traded them to one of the teams that was trying to gain financial flexibility.

Running this team back for a full season with Poeltl has a ceiling of 5th in the East if everything broke their way (which it hasn’t)

 

[MikeH]

Thibs is completely incongruous with the modern NBA. Reddish never had a chance there.

I mean…Reddish simply isn’t very good and his best bet is to join a tanking team to try to get regular minutes to develop. It’s not a coincidence that as soon as Reddish got benched we became one of a small handful of teams with a top 10 offense and a top 10 defense this year. Thibs isn’t the coach for Reddish since he values defense and rebounding and Reddish sucked at both. It was kinda crazy watching clips of Reddish on defense because he’s a guy who should have the tools but seems to have no bball IQ. Couldn’t switch or remember coverages to save his life. Playing Grimes over him has been a gigantic upgrade.

I do think we need a bit of an offensive coach or assistant though and do wish he would adapt more in some cases. I don’t think he’s the kind of coach to make us a contender and would be fine switching it up at some point. But he gets the team to play hard and often gets a lot out of his players. And I think a lot of narratives about him aren’t entirely true. A lot of Knick fans say he won’t play the young players yet the majority of our guys getting regular minutes are under 23.

 

[sahomerrocks]

Omg what in the hell are the Raptors doing. JFC

FYI this was tweeted in reference to trading an expiring Lowry for Tyrese Maxey + stuff

Somehow just amazed they made their spacing worse!

 

[sahomerrocks]

Sixers are 3rd in the East, which just saw one of the contenders fall apart, and salary dumped to get under the luxury tax so Josh Harris can buy the Commanders and create the Acela Line Sports Group. Unserious organization.

 

[MikeH]

Sixers are 3rd in the East, which just saw one of the contenders fall apart, and salary dumped to get under the luxury tax so Josh Harris can buy the Commanders and create the Acela Line Sports Group. Unserious organization.

The lack of any real sixers movement really confused me considering the BK implosion. Now’s the time for them to make a move and they couldn’t even move Korkmaz. The Harris thing makes sense.

I can’t say anything about having a good owner but Dolan at least pays up when he’s asked to.

 

[sahomerrocks]

Rapid fire didn't get to pay all that much attention but just catching up now takes

Winners:

Suns - this is the window with an older CP3. If it doesn't work out they still have Book and Ayton to rebuild his value. Go for it. Probably shouldn't have hired Isiah Thomas after your last owner was outed as a sexual harasser you jerks

Nets - everything fell apart but every other team in the league would have done the same things if given the opportunity. What they didn't do is fall into the trap of sunk cost. Kyrie had to go and they realized KD's value would never be higher. Maybe Simmons can rehabilitate his value while no one is paying attention to Brooklyn.

Bucks - Seem to get a guy at the deadline every year that can help them in the playoffs

Lakers? - LeBron doesn't seem to be slowing down and they got guys who can play instead of guy(s) who are aggressively detrimental to winning basketball.

Getting paid - GSW tried to low-ball GPII, he decided to get paid instead and they were like OOP

Losers:

Raptors - everyone drank their milkshake on tradeable wings and now they're stuck as a play in team

Sixers - see above

Accidental winners

Pistons - I think they're serious about Wiseman, which is stupid. But it'll make them worse and have a better chance at Wemby or Scoot, which is good.

Shrug emoji

Clippers - I never know wtf they're doing. Losers if they sign Westbrook.

Fine

Nuggets - Thomas Bryant is fine and better than DeAndre Jordan.

The lack of any real sixers movement really confused me considering the BK implosion. Now’s the time for them to make a move and they couldn’t even move Korkmaz. The Harris thing makes sense.

I can’t say anything about having a good owner but Dolan at least pays up when he’s asked to.

Furk is definitely the worst player to request a trade on two separate occasions and not get moved

When you have Joel Embiid in his prime and a 33 yr old James Harden playing well you can't miss the opportunity to reset the clock on the repeater tax timeline, as we all know.

 

[MikeH]

The real winners were 2nd round picks. Something like 55 2nd rounders changed hands this deadline

 

[MikeH]

Rapid fire didn't get to pay all that much attention but just catching up now takes

Winners:

Suns - this is the window with an older CP3. If it doesn't work out they still have Book and Ayton to rebuild his value. Go for it. Probably shouldn't have hired Isiah Thomas after your last owner was outed as a sexual harasser you jerks

Nets - everything fell apart but every other team in the league would have done the same things if given the opportunity. What they didn't do is fall into the trap of sunk cost. Kyrie had to go and they realized KD's value would never be higher. Maybe Simmons can rehabilitate his value while no one is paying attention to Brooklyn.

Bucks - Seem to get a guy at the deadline every year that can help them in the playoffs

Lakers? - LeBron doesn't seem to be slowing down and they got guys who can play instead of guy(s) who are aggressively detrimental to winning basketball.

Getting paid - GSW tried to low-ball GPII, he decided to get paid instead and they were like OOP

Losers:

Raptors - everyone drank their milkshake on tradeable wings and now they're stuck as a play in team

Sixers - see above

Accidental winners

Pistons - I think they're serious about Wiseman, which is stupid. But it'll make them worse and have a better chance at Wemby or Scoot, which is good.

Shrug emoji

Clippers - I never know wtf they're doing. Losers if they sign Westbrook.

Fine

Nuggets - Thomas Bryant is fine and better than DeAndre Jordan.


Furk is definitely the worst player to request a trade on two separate occasions and not get moved

When you have Joel Embiid in his prime and a 33 yr old James Harden playing well you can't miss the opportunity to reset the clock on the repeater tax timeline, as we all know.

Clips got Bones and Eric Gordon and didn’t seem to give up much. Reggie Jackson hasn’t played too well this year. Luke Kennard isn’t very good either. I’d rather have the potential of Bones and have Gordon for a bit. Nothing awesome but probably a marginal improvement.

 

[sahomerrocks]

Clips got Bones and Eric Gordon and didn’t seem to give up much. Reggie Jackson hasn’t played too well this year. Luke Kennard isn’t very good either. I’d rather have the potential of Bones and have Gordon for a bit. Nothing awesome but probably a marginal improvement.

I absolutely respect that the Clips try shit. But it's getting harder and harder to comprehend what they're actually trying as I get older and more out of touch.

 

[MikeH]

I absolutely respect that the Clips try shit. But it's getting harder and harder to comprehend what they're actually trying as I get older and more out of touch.

Yea it does sometimes seem like a bit of a “throw shit at the wall” management style haha. I think Lue is a solid coach though and can usually figure out how to use new players and adapt. I wish PG and Kawhi could just be healthy. I love watching Kawhi play and he feels like one of the big what ifs to me of this generation of players when it comes to injury prone players.

 

[bettim84]

So if I'm speaking irrationally ala did I fear you when your team faced mine, were you carrying your team and build a legacy in one place or did your rings come via building super teams / being a mercenary (only within my lifetime):

1) MJ
2) Duncan
3) Kobe
4) Lebron
5) Curry
6) Shaq
7) Dirk
8) KG
9) Wade
10) Nash

If I'm logical and also including talent, stats and impact on the game:
1) MJ
2) Lebron
3) Duncan
4) Curry
5) Kobe
6) Shaq
7) KD
8) Dirk
9) Wade
10) KG or Nash

Side note, I made this list before the KD trade, but have I mentioned KD is a cupcake POS

The one NBA list that I always have going are the “Top Players Drafted Since 2000.”

I like it because other than the very top (Lebron, Curry, KD), the rest is somewhat fluid. I currently have Giannis 4th and Kawhi’s 5th… but should it be Wade instead? Or Jokic (spoiler alert: it WILL be Jokic if he gets a ring within the next couple of years)?

KD is… complicated. I actually think the worst choice he made was leaving Golden State. They could’ve gone from being maybe/probably the best team of all time to definitely the best team of all time. But his pursuit of whatever it is that he’s after caused him to leave. Based on talent alone he absolutely should have more than 2 rings by now.

Personally I rank Curry ahead of KD. Obviously 4 rings to 2 is a part of that equation. There’s no doubt that Curry has had the better career so far. Maybe it’s just luck of the draw that he landed in CA with Klay and Draymond as team mates whereas KD was stuck in Oklahoma with Westbrook? And that OKC did the Harden deed?

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Yea— I saw that news about Bones. But the weird part to me is they traded for another guy who was unhappy with his role in LA and wanted more minutes and asked for a trade. Bones is very talented and I do hope he can put everythjng together. I wanted the Knicks to draft him. It’s weird because of what you said about Malone and backup bigs

Seems like guys like Thibs and Malone don’t really put up with attitudes or guys who don’t want to put the team above themselves. Reddish apparently told an assistant coach here that he was unhappy with his role and from that point forward was benched by Thibs.

Yea— I saw that news about Bones. But the weird part to me is they traded for another guy who was unhappy with his role in LA and wanted more minutes and asked for a trade. Bones is very talented and I do hope he can put everythjng together. I wanted the Knicks to draft him. It’s weird because of what you said about Malone and backup bigs

Seems like guys like Thibs and Malone don’t really put up with attitudes or guys who don’t want to put the team above themselves. Reddish apparently told an assistant coach here that he was unhappy with his role and from that point forward was benched by Thibs.

Thibs and Malone have a lot in common as coaches. I've def compared them before. Except Malone is more likeable behind a mike.

 

[Psymon]

The one NBA list that I always have going are the “Top Players Drafted Since 2000.”

I like it because other than the very top (Lebron, Curry, KD), the rest is somewhat fluid. I currently have Giannis 4th and Kawhi’s 5th… but should it be Wade instead? Or Jokic (spoiler alert: it WILL be Jokic if he gets a ring within the next couple of years)?

KD is… complicated. I actually think the worst choice he made was leaving Golden State. They could’ve gone from being maybe/probably the best team of all time to definitely the best team of all time. But his pursuit of whatever it is that he’s after caused him to leave. Based on talent alone he absolutely should have more than 2 rings by now.

Personally I rank Curry ahead of KD. Obviously 4 rings to 2 is a part of that equation. There’s no doubt that Curry has had the better career so far. Maybe it’s just luck of the draw that he landed in CA with Klay and Draymond as team mates whereas KD was stuck in Oklahoma with Westbrook? And that OKC did the Harden deed?

Can we see the full list?

 

[Psymon]

Also, this has been the worst 24 hours to be a Nuggets fan since Jamal tore his ACL. I knew we were fucked the minute all the Jamal stuff went public but god damn that Bones return is pathetic.

Latest Lowe post - Zach still likes the Nuggets over the Suns and also really likes their Bryant pickup. Simmons and Russillo commented how bad the situation with Bones must have been to unload him like they did (to a Clips team that probably won’t super benefit from his play).

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Latest Lowe post - Zach still likes the Nuggets over the Suns and also really likes their Bryant pickup. Simmons and Russillo commented how bad the situation with Bones must have been to unload him like they did (to a Clips team that probably won’t super benefit from his play).

Zach always likes the Nuggets .

I am very concerned about our bench PG situation. Malone has been running Jamal into the ground right as he was turning into his peak self (24/5/6 on 50/44/90 over his past 15 games but with a 5 game stint where he was playing nearly 40 mins a game). So of course his knee is now inflammed.

Meanwhile, you have Brown running the point (great player not a PG) and Ish backing him up . You know things are bad when you're praying Reggie Jackson says yes.

But yes, the Bones things had clearly gotten bad. Flashbacks to the Nurkic situation years ago.

 

[bettim84]

Can we see the full list?

I only had 20 or so, but you motivated me to put more time into it and go all the way down to 40. Obviously I’m spitballing here (personal preferences definitely play a part), though I did make note of most major accolades. Let’s do tiers:

TIER 1: The Unquestionables

1. Lebron
2. Steph
3. KD

Arguably Lebron should be on a tier of his own, given the absurd number of top 5 MVP finishes and All-NBAs.

TIER 2: Proven Champions

4. Giannis
5. Kawhi
6. Wade

For quite some time I had Kawhi at #4 because of the 2 FMVPs, but he’s not nearly as consistent as Giannis. As for Wade, I was never a fan and still think that the reffing during that 2006 playoff was calamitous… but you can’t say he ever got in the way of his team winning (unlike some of the guys coming up below).

TIER 3: Historical Greats

7. CP3
8. Jokic
9. Harden

I don’t think these picks will be too controversial here. Chris Paul’s extended prime was impressive (looks like it’s finally done but lucky for him he’s just hitched himself to one of six guys above him in this list!). Jokic is a 2x MVP, a joy to watch, and would easily crack into the top 5 of this list with a title. As for Harden… I strongly considered putting him in the tier below, but it’s hard to argue against the sheer number of accolades he amassed during his prime (6x top 5 MVP finishes!). Yes he was an unwatchable ball hog and a chronic playoff loser yet even that could change if Embiid stays healthy.

TIER 4: Stars (?)

10. Westbrook
11. Dwight
12. Anthony Davis

This is my least favorite tier and I am oh so reluctant to rank these guys this high. All three of these players have glaring flaws. Westbrook was an inefficient train wreck even in his prime. Dwight Howard has 8 All-NBAs… most of which came when the league was bereft of good centers. And Anthony “street clothes” Davis is one of the most frustratingly inconsistent talents the league has ever seen. My heart tells me that none of them should have made the NBA’s All-Time Top 75 (Russ and AD did; Dwight did not). But all three have NBA finals appearances and top-5 MVP finishes, which is how they ended up so high in my rudimentary ranking system.

TIER 5: Badass Winners

13. Tony Parker
14. Pau Gasol
15. Jimmy Butler

Parker and Gasol should’ve made the All-Time Top 75. Am I contradicting myself here? Sure am. Parker has a finals MVP and would’ve had a second if it wasn’t for the Ray Allen shot. Gasol also should’ve had a finals MVP if it wasn’t for the pro-Kobe bias. And Jimmy is a playoff monster just a notch below Kawhi. I might be overrating these guys but hey, I got tired of listing players I dislike.

TIER 6: Great and Climbing

16. Luka
17. Embiid

This is where you realize that this list is a living document. Luka has shown all signs of being a historically great player, down to his team freaking out and making bad trades in a desperate effort to keep him long term. Embiid looks the part of a Hakeem-and-Shaq hybrid, but has been let down by poorly-timed injuries and having lame-ass Ben Simmons as a teammate for so long. Philly could’ve absolutely won the title in 2019 but Kawhi’s four-bounce shot happened. They probably would’ve had better chances in 2020 and 2021 if they had dumped Ben Simmons sooner and kept Jimmy Butler. That said, Embiid needs to at least make a conference finals soon, or else he will drop down this list in no time.

TIER 7: Top Bananas

18. Dame
19. PG13
20. Carmelo
21. Blake Griffin

Each of these guys had one top 5 MVP finish and either 5x or 6x All-NBAs (in my rush to post this I did not take the time to distinguish between 1st/2nd/3rd teams). Dame gets slightly ahead because of his team loyalty and series-ending shots (I previously had PG13 ranked ahead of him… and then I remembered).

TIER 8: Second Bananas, Rising Stars, and the Biggest What If

22. Draymond
23. Klay
24. Tatum
25. Booker
26. D Rose
27. Iguodala
28. Kyrie
29. Middleton
30. Lowry

Not sure we need a long write up here. Each of these players has had a notable career, fought for titles, and at least two of them (Tatum and Booker) have the opportunity to really rise up these rankings should they lead their teams to a championship.

TIER 9: All-NBAs

31. Yao
32. Aldridge
33. DeRozan
34. Rondo
35. Joakim Noah
36. Brandon Roy
37. Gilbert Arenas
38. Ja
39. Kevin Love
40. Gobert

I’m not sure what Ja Morant is doing here. He may very well climb up, but he could also easily drop out of the top 40 if Memphis doesn’t make some noise in the postseason soon.

My current honorable mentions are Bam, Horford, and DJ. Who did I miss?

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I only had 20 or so, but you motivated me to put more time into it and go all the way down to 40. Obviously I’m spitballing here (personal preferences definitely play a part), though I did make note of most major accolades. Let’s do tiers:

TIER 1: The Unquestionables

1. Lebron
2. Steph
3. KD

Arguably Lebron should be on a tier of his own, given the absurd number of top 5 MVP finishes and All-NBAs.

TIER 2: Proven Champions

4. Giannis
5. Kawhi
6. Wade

For quite some time I had Kawhi at #4 because of the 2 FMVPs, but he’s not nearly as consistent as Giannis. As for Wade, I was never a fan and still think that the reffing during that 2006 playoff was calamitous… but you can’t say he ever got in the way of his team winning (unlike some of the guys coming up below).

TIER 3: Historical Greats

7. CP3
8. Jokic
9. Harden

I don’t think these picks will be too controversial here. Chris Paul’s extended prime was impressive (looks like it’s finally done but lucky for him he’s just hitched himself to one of six guys above him in this list!). Jokic is a 2x MVP, a joy to watch, and would easily crack into the top 5 of this list with a title. As for Harden… I strongly considered putting him in the tier below, but it’s hard to argue against the sheer number of accolades he amassed during his prime (6x top 5 MVP finishes!). Yes he was an unwatchable ball hog and a chronic playoff loser yet even that could change if Embiid stays healthy.

TIER 4: Stars (?)

10. Westbrook
11. Dwight
12. Anthony Davis

This is my least favorite tier and I am oh so reluctant to rank these guys this high. All three of these players have glaring flaws. Westbrook was an inefficient train wreck even in his prime. Dwight Howard has 8 All-NBAs… most of which came when the league was bereft of good centers. And Anthony “street clothes” Davis is one of the most frustratingly inconsistent talents the league has ever seen. My heart tells me that none of them should have made the NBA’s All-Time Top 75 (Russ and AD did; Dwight did not). But all three have NBA finals appearances and top-5 MVP finishes, which is how they ended up so high in my rudimentary ranking system.

TIER 5: Badass Winners

13. Tony Parker
14. Pau Gasol
15. Jimmy Butler

Parker and Gasol should’ve made the All-Time Top 75. Am I contradicting myself here? Sure am. Parker has a finals MVP and would’ve had a second if it wasn’t for the Ray Allen shot. Gasol also should’ve had a finals MVP if it wasn’t for the pro-Kobe bias. And Jimmy is a playoff monster just a notch below Kawhi. I might be overrating these guys but hey, I got tired of listing players I dislike.

TIER 6: Great and Climbing

16. Luka
17. Embiid

This is where you realize that this list is a living document. Luka has shown all signs of being a historically great player, down to his team freaking out and making bad trades in a desperate effort to keep him long term. Embiid looks the part of a Hakeem-and-Shaq hybrid, but has been let down by poorly-timed injuries and having lame-ass Ben Simmons as a teammate for so long. Philly could’ve absolutely won the title in 2019 but Kawhi’s four-bounce shot happened. They probably would’ve had better chances in 2020 and 2021 if they had dumped Ben Simmons sooner and kept Jimmy Butler. That said, Embiid needs to at least make a conference finals soon, or else he will drop down this list in no time.

TIER 7: Top Bananas

18. Dame
19. PG13
20. Carmelo
21. Blake Griffin

Each of these guys had one top 5 MVP finish and either 5x or 6x All-NBAs (in my rush to post this I did not take the time to distinguish between 1st/2nd/3rd teams). Dame gets slightly ahead because of his team loyalty and series-ending shots (I previously had PG13 ranked ahead of him… and then I remembered).

TIER 8: Second Bananas, Rising Stars, and the Biggest What If

22. Draymond
23. Klay
24. Tatum
25. Booker
26. D Rose
27. Iguodala
28. Kyrie
29. Middleton
30. Lowry

Not sure we need a long write up here. Each of these players has had a notable career, fought for titles, and at least two of them (Tatum and Booker) have the opportunity to really rise up these rankings should they lead their teams to a championship.

TIER 9: All-NBAs

31. Yao
32. Aldridge
33. DeRozan
34. Rondo
35. Joakim Noah
36. Brandon Roy
37. Gilbert Arenas
38. Ja
39. Kevin Love
40. Gobert

I’m not sure what Ja Morant is doing here. He may very well climb up, but he could also easily drop out of the top 40 if Memphis doesn’t make some noise in the postseason soon.

My current honorable mentions are Bam, Horford, and DJ. Who did I miss?

This is a great list. Mitchell's omission is pretty glarring to me though. Wild that Arenas was post-2000. Seems so long ago.

God I hope Jamal can stay healthy. He in no way deserves to be here right now. But I firmly believe that without the ACL tear we would be talking about him in the same breath as Mitchell, Middleton, Booker (though Booker has taken a leap).

Dude is sincerely good for 23/4/5 (and that assist # prob goes higher now bc he has taken a clear leap in that regard) on 50/42/90 when healthy. There's about a 100 game sample size on that now.

And is high IQ, selfless, is a solid defender (though he's better against SG and wings than PG's) and clutch af.

I would also def have the Luka / Embid tier above Tier 4. Embid has consistently done more with less than AD, who in my opinion, is the most overrated player of my lifetime. Literally rode Lebron to a title and other than that one year... his teams are perepetual REGUALAR season disappointments. Yes, he was a heavy contributor to that run. But he's an elite #2 whose teams are lottery bound if he is the #1 because he can't really shot create or playmake on a real star level.

Edit-- Also Dwight should be above Westbrook and probably stay ahead of Embid after that tier swap.

 

[bettim84]

This is a great list. Mitchell's omission is pretty glarring to me though. Wild that Arenas was post-2000. Seems so long ago.

God I hope Jamal can stay healthy. He in no way deserves to be here right now. But I firmly believe that without the ACL tear we would be talking about him in the same breath as Mitchell, Middleton, Booker (though Booker has taken a leap).

Dude is sincerely good for 23/4/5 (and that assist # prob goes higher now bc he has taken a clear leap in that regard) on 50/42/90 when healthy. There's about a 100 game sample size on that now.

And is high IQ, selfless, is a solid defender (though he's better against SG and wings than PG's) and clutch af.

I would also def have the Luka / Embid tier above Tier 4. Embid has consistently done more with less than AD, who in my opinion, is the most overrated player of my lifetime. Literally rode Lebron to a title and other than that one year... his teams are perepetual REGUALAR season disappointments. Yes, he was a heavy contributor to that run. But he's an elite #2 whose teams are lottery bound if he is the #1 because he can't really shot create or playmake on a real star level.

Edit-- Also Dwight should be above Westbrook and probably stay ahead of Embid after that tier swap.

I get it; it is with great reluctance that I have Davis ranked that high. He’s never been able to carry his own team that far (other than at Kentucky). He’s basically a glorified, inconsistent second banana (not unlike Kyrie, now that I think about it). Frankly, what gets him up there are the two top 5 MVP finishes, but I’ll probably work out some way to bump him down eventually…. Actually, Embiid and Luka will probably finish in the top 5 MVP spots again, which would vault them above Davis and closer to Harden territory.

Lastly, I don’t see Mitchell as a glaring omission (at least not yet). He hasn’t made an All-NBA team (yet). If he’s never been on the top 6 guards in the league at any given point, he probably hasn’t shown enough to make the cut. I do think he and Jamal Murray are great players but I need to see more.

And yep, Arenas was drafted in 2001! Made All-NBA three times (1x 2nd team, 2x 3rd team). His peak was short but he was an exciting player for a while there (admittedly, it may be nostalgia goggles talking here).

 

[Psymon]

I only had 20 or so, but you motivated me to put more time into it and go all the way down to 40. Obviously I’m spitballing here (personal preferences definitely play a part), though I did make note of most major accolades. Let’s do tiers:

TIER 1: The Unquestionables

1. Lebron
2. Steph
3. KD

Arguably Lebron should be on a tier of his own, given the absurd number of top 5 MVP finishes and All-NBAs.

TIER 2: Proven Champions

4. Giannis
5. Kawhi
6. Wade

For quite some time I had Kawhi at #4 because of the 2 FMVPs, but he’s not nearly as consistent as Giannis. As for Wade, I was never a fan and still think that the reffing during that 2006 playoff was calamitous… but you can’t say he ever got in the way of his team winning (unlike some of the guys coming up below).

TIER 3: Historical Greats

7. CP3
8. Jokic
9. Harden

I don’t think these picks will be too controversial here. Chris Paul’s extended prime was impressive (looks like it’s finally done but lucky for him he’s just hitched himself to one of six guys above him in this list!). Jokic is a 2x MVP, a joy to watch, and would easily crack into the top 5 of this list with a title. As for Harden… I strongly considered putting him in the tier below, but it’s hard to argue against the sheer number of accolades he amassed during his prime (6x top 5 MVP finishes!). Yes he was an unwatchable ball hog and a chronic playoff loser yet even that could change if Embiid stays healthy.

TIER 4: Stars (?)

10. Westbrook
11. Dwight
12. Anthony Davis

This is my least favorite tier and I am oh so reluctant to rank these guys this high. All three of these players have glaring flaws. Westbrook was an inefficient train wreck even in his prime. Dwight Howard has 8 All-NBAs… most of which came when the league was bereft of good centers. And Anthony “street clothes” Davis is one of the most frustratingly inconsistent talents the league has ever seen. My heart tells me that none of them should have made the NBA’s All-Time Top 75 (Russ and AD did; Dwight did not). But all three have NBA finals appearances and top-5 MVP finishes, which is how they ended up so high in my rudimentary ranking system.

TIER 5: Badass Winners

13. Tony Parker
14. Pau Gasol
15. Jimmy Butler

Parker and Gasol should’ve made the All-Time Top 75. Am I contradicting myself here? Sure am. Parker has a finals MVP and would’ve had a second if it wasn’t for the Ray Allen shot. Gasol also should’ve had a finals MVP if it wasn’t for the pro-Kobe bias. And Jimmy is a playoff monster just a notch below Kawhi. I might be overrating these guys but hey, I got tired of listing players I dislike.

TIER 6: Great and Climbing

16. Luka
17. Embiid

This is where you realize that this list is a living document. Luka has shown all signs of being a historically great player, down to his team freaking out and making bad trades in a desperate effort to keep him long term. Embiid looks the part of a Hakeem-and-Shaq hybrid, but has been let down by poorly-timed injuries and having lame-ass Ben Simmons as a teammate for so long. Philly could’ve absolutely won the title in 2019 but Kawhi’s four-bounce shot happened. They probably would’ve had better chances in 2020 and 2021 if they had dumped Ben Simmons sooner and kept Jimmy Butler. That said, Embiid needs to at least make a conference finals soon, or else he will drop down this list in no time.

TIER 7: Top Bananas

18. Dame
19. PG13
20. Carmelo
21. Blake Griffin

Each of these guys had one top 5 MVP finish and either 5x or 6x All-NBAs (in my rush to post this I did not take the time to distinguish between 1st/2nd/3rd teams). Dame gets slightly ahead because of his team loyalty and series-ending shots (I previously had PG13 ranked ahead of him… and then I remembered).

TIER 8: Second Bananas, Rising Stars, and the Biggest What If

22. Draymond
23. Klay
24. Tatum
25. Booker
26. D Rose
27. Iguodala
28. Kyrie
29. Middleton
30. Lowry

Not sure we need a long write up here. Each of these players has had a notable career, fought for titles, and at least two of them (Tatum and Booker) have the opportunity to really rise up these rankings should they lead their teams to a championship.

TIER 9: All-NBAs

31. Yao
32. Aldridge
33. DeRozan
34. Rondo
35. Joakim Noah
36. Brandon Roy
37. Gilbert Arenas
38. Ja
39. Kevin Love
40. Gobert

I’m not sure what Ja Morant is doing here. He may very well climb up, but he could also easily drop out of the top 40 if Memphis doesn’t make some noise in the postseason soon.

My current honorable mentions are Bam, Horford, and DJ. Who did I miss?

This is a great list. Mitchell's omission is pretty glarring to me though. Wild that Arenas was post-2000. Seems so long ago.

God I hope Jamal can stay healthy. He in no way deserves to be here right now. But I firmly believe that without the ACL tear we would be talking about him in the same breath as Mitchell, Middleton, Booker (though Booker has taken a leap).

Dude is sincerely good for 23/4/5 (and that assist # prob goes higher now bc he has taken a clear leap in that regard) on 50/42/90 when healthy. There's about a 100 game sample size on that now.

And is high IQ, selfless, is a solid defender (though he's better against SG and wings than PG's) and clutch af.

I would also def have the Luka / Embid tier above Tier 4. Embid has consistently done more with less than AD, who in my opinion, is the most overrated player of my lifetime. Literally rode Lebron to a title and other than that one year... his teams are perepetual REGUALAR season disappointments. Yes, he was a heavy contributor to that run. But he's an elite #2 whose teams are lottery bound if he is the #1 because he can't really shot create or playmake on a real star level.

Edit-- Also Dwight should be above Westbrook and probably stay ahead of Embid after that tier swap.

Great list. I agree Mitchell should be on the list toward the bottom (and I’d imagine if he keeps up his Cle play, he’ll make it0, and I think I too would move Luka/Embiid up. I totally agree with your tier 4 analysis - those guys have to be in there and yet you don’t feel good about it. I’d say that Ant is going to quickly make his way on to this list.