Political Discussion

BjorgenFjorgen said:
As opposed to now, when Biden and Harris are also letting Netanyahu do whatever he wants.
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But are they? It’s a genuine question. I feel like you assume that the worst possible scenarios are what’s already occurring. I feel like if given complete free rein or worse still the US actively support things could be way worse. I can’t say for certain which of us is correct in our assumption but I don’t think I want to find out for certain.
 
ayayrawn said:
I'm not trying to insinuate Trump will be any better, but this is, in reality, pretty much what we have right now.
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I disagree. I think things today are horrific. I also think things could and would be much worse.

That doesn’t give a pass to what is happening now. Biden/Harris should be criticized and they should do more to put an end to the bloodshed; at the very least stop American made weapons from being used to carry out genocide.

The US won’t let Ukraine use American weapons to attack inside Russia. They should have the same policy with Israel.
 
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I’m fairly certain Trump starts WW3 for sure. I’m pretty sure he lets Netanyahu do whatever he wants (which like it or not is not what Biden is doing). He also lets Putin march into Ukraine and Putin ain’t gonna stop there. And probably just to stay with his buddies, we join Iran, China and Russia in their fight.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
But are they? It’s a genuine question. I feel like you assume that the worst possible scenarios are what’s already occurring. I feel like if given complete free rein or worse still the US actively support things could be way worse. I can’t say for certain which of us is correct in our assumption but I don’t think I want to find out for certain.
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Oh my fucking god dude. Gaza is hell on earth.
 
ayayrawn said:
I'm not trying to insinuate Trump will be any better, but this is, in reality, pretty much what we have right now.
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Yeah any suggestion that the Dems care about a two-state solution is based completely on fantasy.
TenderLovingKiller® said:
I think we all here wish things would be handled much differently. I think most of us think things would be worse under Trump.

If you think this is a driving factor in the election you haven’t talked to many Americans. Most don’t even know where to find Israel on a map.

As long as America doesn’t have boots on the ground most won’t give a shit.
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That youth vote that the Dems have historically needed to win? Alienating them and branding them terrorist sympathizers is not going to encourage them to head to the polls. Why would they vote for the administration 100% behind this? What's myopic is voting for "the lesser evil" (an absolutely laughable idea); what do you think happens long term when you tell the party, "Genocide is fine"? It took humanity thousands of years and the Holocaust to get to international humanitarian law. Biden and Harris have ripped it up to placate a foreign country. Endorse that at your own peril (and the world's), I guess.
 
A cousin I haven't seen in over 35 years added me on Facebook to invite me to a family reunion. I was already a no, but her Facebook feed is full of her posting about how the Democrats are controlling the weather and making hurricanes to wipe out conservatives. Half of the comments on her posts are people calling her a fucking dumb ass and the other half are people agreeing with her. These are dumb asses in their 30s and 40s. I'm ashamed that there is so much stupid that close in my family tree. I always knew my uncle (her dad) was a Trump loving racist shit heel, but figured his kids wouldn't be as dumb. I'm shocked that they even reached out to me on Facebook because one look at my profile will tell them that I'm actually who they mistakenly fear the Democrats are.
 
BjorgenFjorgen said:
Yeah any suggestion that the Dems care about a two-state solution is based completely on fantasy.

That youth vote that the Dems have historically needed to win? Alienating them and branding them terrorist sympathizers is not going to encourage them to head to the polls. Why would they vote for the administration 100% behind this? What's myopic is voting for "the lesser evil" (an absolutely laughable idea); what do you think happens long term when you tell the party, "Genocide is fine"? It took humanity thousands of years and the Holocaust to get to international humanitarian law. Biden and Harris have ripped it up to placate a foreign country. Endorse that at your own peril (and the world's), I guess.
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Again, most Americans, even the youth vote don’t care about foreign policy that doesn’t affect them directly.

Another genuine question, if there are only two viable candidates and voting for the lesser of two evils is a “laughable idea” then what is the solution?

To me, there are only 3 options within this scenario:

A.) I vote for the greater or the two evils. Really lean into the genocide maybe expand it so instead of indirectly enabling it the US can get directly involved, all while expediting the effects of global warming and setting back social issues by 40 years. While pushing towards a Christo-fascist oligarchy.

B.) I Sit out of the election completely “in protest” enabling the worst option to regain power. Knowing that if Trump wins and makes things much worse for everyone both foreign and domestic but I can stand on some distorted moral high ground, where I can say “don’t blame me, if the Dems had put up a perfect candidate that passed my purity test, they would have received my vote and possibly won the election but instead now everyone will suffer much worse. That will show them the error of their ways.” Which will be a bit of a cold comfort when unbadged Department of Homeland Security storm troopers start rounding up liberals and throwing them into camps but at least I’ll have a clear conscious.

C. I vote for the lesser of two evils shitty stuff still happens but things don’t get demonstrably worse.


Is there another options? I don’t feel like there is but for me in this specific scenario the “lesser of two evils” option seems like the only reasonable option at this point.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
B.) I Sit out of the election completely “in protest” enabling the worst option to regain power. Knowing that if Trump wins and makes things much worse for everyone both foreign and domestic but I can stand on some distorted moral high ground, where I can say “don’t blame me, if the Dems had put up a perfect candidate that passed my purity test, they would have received my vote and possibly won the election but instead now everyone will suffer much worse. That will show them the error of their ways.
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My purity test is not full-throatedly endorsing genocide, I don't think that's a high bar.

TenderLovingKiller® said:
C. I vote for the lesser of two evils shitty stuff still happens but things don’t get demonstrably worse.
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This is just simplistic and reductive. Things have gotten demonstably worse during Biden's tenure. Both at home and abroad. Being able to say they won't is just class and Western societal privilege.

TenderLovingKiller® said:
Is there another options? I don’t feel like there is but for me in this specific scenario the “lesser of two evils” option seems like the only reasonable option at this point.
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You and most people here aren't going to like this, but D.) Vote third party is an actual option people have. Because unless you live in PA, MI, WI, GA, AZ or NV, your presidential vote does not statistically matter.

Regardless, if voting truly is the "big issue" where the buck stops for people, we're already fucked. It's like the first rung on the ladder.
 
ayayrawn said:
Things have gotten demonstably worse during Biden's tenure. Both at home and abroad. Being able to say they won't is just class and Western societal privilege.
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You can’t imagine a world worse than one where Biden was president, when his presidency was immediately preceded by Trump?

In response to to the meme:

The GOP in 2024: Look, we know he cheats on his pregnant wife with a porn star, sexually assaults women, and attempts to overthrow the government but you *have* to vote for him.

They are there already. If the Dems win then America might have the opportunity to nominate a president that’s not a goat fucking cannibal. If Trump wins maybe we don’t get that option.

What third party should I vote for and why? I genuinely do not feel there is a third party candidate who isn’t batshit but am always willing to listen.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
Again, most Americans, even the youth vote don’t care about foreign policy that doesn’t affect them directly.

Another genuine question, if there are only two viable candidates and voting for the lesser of two evils is a “laughable idea” then what is the solution?

To me, there are only 3 options within this scenario:

A.) I vote for the greater or the two evils. Really lean into the genocide maybe expand it so instead of indirectly enabling it the US can get directly involved, all while expediting the effects of global warming and setting back social issues by 40 years. While pushing towards a Christo-fascist oligarchy.

B.) I Sit out of the election completely “in protest” enabling the worst option to regain power. Knowing that if Trump wins and makes things much worse for everyone both foreign and domestic but I can stand on some distorted moral high ground, where I can say “don’t blame me, if the Dems had put up a perfect candidate that passed my purity test, they would have received my vote and possibly won the election but instead now everyone will suffer much worse. That will show them the error of their ways.” Which will be a bit of a cold comfort when unbadged Department of Homeland Security storm troopers start rounding up liberals and throwing them into camps but at least I’ll have a clear conscious.

C. I vote for the lesser of two evils shitty stuff still happens but things don’t get demonstrably worse.


Is there another options? I don’t feel like there is but for me in this specific scenario the “lesser of two evils” option seems like the only reasonable option at this point.
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What's laughable is that Kamala is a lesser evil. The U.S. already is directly involved; her boss, from whom she refuses to break, even in October, is the single most responsible people for this genocide. A genocidaire is not a lesser evil. (She and Biden also brag about the amount of fossil fuels the U.S. is producing and Kamala is again in support of fracking, so not sure how climate change is relevant here either.)

As @ayayrawn has already pointed out: the Dems continuing to count on your vote year after year, with no policy other than "we're not our opponent!", is why they continually drift rightward and have ended up here.

Whether most Americans care is beside the point. Voters, say, 18–35, are a huge demographic on which the Dems have relied for support. With the Dems have continually spitting in their face, fewer of those voters will show up. That's not debatable.
 
Like it or not, the past ten years has been a fight against our wanna be despot who has a cult of personality behind him. I get people not wanting to endorse Harris but we can’t act like “not being that guy” isn’t actually fucking important.

I firmly believe our country needs to reenagage in the democracy it touts as so great and we need to hold our leaders responsible for their actions and inactions. I believe we need to do a lot of work at a local and state level to enact the change we want.

That’s one of the great things about Walz being on the ticket, he has actually done good things in Minnesota.
 
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