Political Discussion

[AnthonyI]

What's laughable is that Kamala is a lesser evil. The U.S. already is directly involved; her boss, from whom she refuses to break, even in October, is the single most responsible people for this genocide. A genocidaire is not a lesser evil. (She and Biden also brag about the amount of fossil fuels the U.S. is producing and Kamala is again in support of fracking, so not sure how climate change is relevant here either.)

As @ayayrawn has already pointed out: the Dems continuing to count on your vote year after year, with no policy other than "we're not our opponent!", is why they continually drift rightward and have ended up here.

Whether most Americans care is beside the point. Voters, say, 18–35, are a huge demographic on which the Dems have relied for support. With the Dems have continually spitting in their face, fewer of those voters will show up. That's not debatable.

I understand your point of view, but as @TenderLovingKiller® posted, the options are what they are. The difference is that the "lesser of two evils" has a completely different outcome than how it's been perceived in the past.

I hate having to pick the lesser of two evils, always have, but we're never going to make a meaningful shift over one election, it takes time. But, at this moment in time we're dealing with a completely different scenario and candidate. One that, if you have half a brain, should realize he could bring on the end of democracy as we know it. Then what? How do you start to make the changes at that point?

So I understand your concerns, but in my opinion, this isn't the time, this country needs to get back to some sort of normal before we can start to make actual changes. To each his own, vote, don't vote, but understand that any and all choices are contributing to the outcome. Now weigh the benefits or lack there of, of those outcomes.

 

[TenderLovingKiller®]

What's laughable is that Kamala is a lesser evil. The U.S. already is directly involved; her boss, from whom she refuses to break, even in October, is the single most responsible people for this genocide. A genocidaire is not a lesser evil. (She and Biden also brag about the amount of fossil fuels the U.S. is producing and Kamala is again in support of fracking, so not sure how climate change is relevant here either.)

As @ayayrawn has already pointed out: the Dems continuing to count on your vote year after year, with no policy other than "we're not our opponent!", is why they continually drift rightward and have ended up here.

Whether most Americans care is beside the point. Voters, say, 18–35, are a huge demographic on which the Dems have relied for support. With the Dems have continually spitting in their face, fewer of those voters will show up. That's not debatable.

You didn’t answer my question. If supporting the lesser of two evils is laughable then what are you saying that American voters should do?

You come hard with the criticism while offering very little in tangible realistic solutions.

We all agree with you that what is happening in the Middle East is horrible but you refuse to acknowledge that if both Trump and Harris are terrible on that specific issue that there are numerous other issues that they differ a great deal on and those issue directly effect Americans lives. Suggesting that voters throw the baby out with the bath water over this single issue is obtuse.

I feel like you are understandably upset and critical of US foreign policies many Americans feel you and agree with you. Where we differ is on how to mitigate the damage. If we choose to do nothing the situation will undoubtedly get much worse in many areas of American life.

 

[Nee Lewman]

On other things, could people who are not in the mountains and have no fucking clue what they are talking about shut up about the recovery efforts in NC? Jesus Christ we won’t be here by the time our AI overlords are ready to kill us all because we will have started eating each other from disinformation reports claiming human meat will cure all your illnesses. FUCK!!!

 

[The Denmarkian Wonder]

Lolololol

 

[AnthonyI]

Lolololol

Wow, and he went through all that with a straight face.

 

[Nee Lewman]

Wow, and he went through all that with a straight face.

I mean that’s the problem. These guys have existed for years. Back when my dad worked at the body shop, he used to parrot some of the talking points. Fortunately, he is completely removed from that now. It’s one of the deep seated things that Trump was really able to exploit.

My wife’s family is like this. They actually believe that white cisgendered Christians (which the last one - they aren’t even) are being minoritized somehow.

 

[Nee Lewman]

It doesn’t help any of this white fragility (or the America/Israel issue) that the Christian Bible actually contains the Torah. The Torah is about an enslaved people breaking the chains and much of the New Testament after Christ’s death is about the persecution of believers. As a result much of the Christian theology is about being a minority, which hasn’t been the case for like a thousand years. Much in the same way that many Americans can’t conceive that the Constitution is meant to be a living document that was built with the ability to be amended - many Christians can’t fathom that they aren’t actually persecuted and those parts of the Bible are not relevant to them.

 

[wmeugene]

It doesn’t help any of this white fragility (or the America/Israel issue) that the Christian Bible actually contains the Torah. The Torah is about an enslaved people breaking the chains and much of the New Testament after Christ’s death is about the persecution of believers. As a result much of the Christian theology is about being a minority, which hasn’t been the case for like a thousand years. Much in the same way that many Americans can’t conceive that the Constitution is meant to be a living document that was built with the ability to be amended - many Christians can’t fathom that they aren’t actually persecuted and those parts of the Bible are not relevant to them.

There's a culture of victimhood in many evangelical churches where they view anything in popular culture that differs from their norms and values as persecution and a targeted attack on them versus, you know, people just living their lives. That culture of victimhood has definitely seeped into non-college educated whites as a whole who seem to think anything that remotely benefits another group (regardless of whether it actually effects them or not) is an attack on them.

 

[Nee Lewman]

There's a culture of victimhood in many evangelical churches where they view anything in popular culture that differs from their norms and values as persecution and a targeted attack on them versus, you know, people just living their lives. That culture of victimhood has definitely seeped into non-college educated whites as a whole who seem to think anything that remotely benefits another group (regardless of whether it actually effects them or not) is an attack on them.

I had rambled on for a bit about evangelicals and apostolic then decided that it was branching out too much. These groups also set up the ability of their leader to err and still be able to call out the same issues with others while not being accused of hypocrisy.

 

[BjorgenFjorgen]

It’s not exactly an honest debate to say Biden is the single person most responsible for the genocide.

He is quite literally the person supplying Israel with the bombs and diplomatic cover. He had power over Netanyahu and refuses to use it. He is the single most powerful person on the planet. What's hard to understand?

Like it or not, the past ten years has been a fight against our wanna be despot who has a cult of personality behind him. I get people not wanting to endorse Harris but we can’t act like “not being that guy” isn’t actually fucking important.

I firmly believe our country needs to reenagage in the democracy it touts as so great and we need to hold our leaders responsible for their actions and inactions. I believe we need to do a lot of work at a local and state level to enact the change we want.

That’s one of the great things about Walz being on the ticket, he has actually done good things in Minnesota.

"Not that guy" is "that woman" who's currently overseeing genocide and who is saying she wouldn't have done anything differently than Biden.

Walz did good things in Minnesota, yes. Since being chosen to run for VP, the Harris campaign is neutering all of his charisma or even ability to speak on those policies. Because they are not her policies.

Choosing between horrible candidate #1 and horrible candidate #2 is not re-engaging your democracy.

I understand your point of view, but as @TenderLovingKiller® posted, the options are what they are. The difference is that the "lesser of two evils" has a completely different outcome than how it's been perceived in the past.

I hate having to pick the lesser of two evils, always have, but we're never going to make a meaningful shift over one election, it takes time. But, at this moment in time we're dealing with a completely different scenario and candidate. One that, if you have half a brain, should realize he could bring on the end of democracy as we know it. Then what? How do you start to make the changes at that point?

So I understand your concerns, but in my opinion, this isn't the time, this country needs to get back to some sort of normal before we can start to make actual changes. To each his own, vote, don't vote, but understand that any and all choices are contributing to the outcome. Now weigh the benefits or lack there of, of those outcomes.

Your democracy is already dead. You cannot influence the Democrats after the election; they quite literally refuse to modify their policy positions in response to their constituents', voters', and party members' desires. Twenty plus years of "trying to push the Dems left" have gotten you here. Continuing to reward them will continue to make it worse. Regardless of who wins, there are no "changes at that point."

You didn’t answer my question. If supporting the lesser of two evils is laughable then what are you saying that American voters should do?

You come hard with the criticism while offering very little in tangible realistic solutions.

We all agree with you that what is happening in the Middle East is horrible but you refuse to acknowledge that if both Trump and Harris are terrible on that specific issue that there are numerous other issues that they differ a great deal on and those issue directly effect Americans lives. Suggesting that voters throw the baby out with the bath water over this single issue is obtuse.

I feel like you are understandably upset and critical of US foreign policies many Americans feel you and agree with you. Where we differ is on how to mitigate the damage. If we choose to do nothing the situation will undoubtedly get much worse in many areas of American life.

I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do. I'm just pointing out how absolutely brain-dead this line of thinking has gotten you so far. Sure, vote for Kamala. But don't pretend there's any virtue in that.

"Throwing the baby out with the bath water." My guy, the Democrats have already thrown immigrants, Muslims, and LGBTQ+ people under the bus in their attempt to court conservatives. If you don't throw this water out now, who will be next?

Outside of another armed revolution, there probably aren't really solutions. Not sure why you would expect me to have one. Most likely, the end of the American empire and hegemony is the only hope. Whatever accelerates that process is good with me. In the meantime, solidarity and mutual aid, on local and national levels, are what you can rely on—and the only things you can rely on—to get you through the next four years and the inevitable ongoing backslide of American democracy. Godspeed, I guess.

 

[Nee Lewman]

He is quite literally the person supplying Israel with the bombs and diplomatic cover. He had power over Netanyahu and refuses to use it. He is the single most powerful person on the planet. What's hard to understand?

Netanyahu is the most responsible person for the genocide.

I’m not going to argue with you that Biden and the U.S. have been enabling him more than not, but Biden is not ordering Israeli (or American) troops into Gaza to kill people. So no, he is absolutely not the person most singularly responsible.

Again, it’s a dishonest, at best, stance.

And yes there is actually a lesser evil in this election.

Hopefully where we are at is a call to the folks who aren’t young…. because gen z/alpha and even the younger millenials all seem to care a lot more than my generation or the fucking boomers did.

 

[ayayrawn]

Outside of another armed revolution, there probably aren't really solutions. Not sure why you would expect me to have one. Most likely, the end of the American empire and hegemony is the only hope. Whatever accelerates that process is good with me. In the meantime, solidarity and mutual aid, on local and national levels, are what you can rely on—and the only things you can rely on—to get you through the next four years and the inevitable ongoing backslide of American democracy. Godspeed, I guess.

Yea, I don't really have a solution, just venting. Honestly just over this evil empire. Feel like I'm going insane with the media and people arguing to me that the genocide candidate is better than the genocide + other awful shit candidate. At that point it's kind of already over. Other things need to be the focus.

 

[TenderLovingKiller®]

Outside of another armed revolution, there probably aren't really solutions.

I am sure that will be bloodless and things usually end up in a better place afterwards. Like it has time after time throughout history.

Not sure why you would expect me to have one.

Because that is how politics works. You attempt to find solutions for problems. If everything is terrible and nothing (outside of armed revolution) can fix the issue than what is even the point? We all hate what Israel is doing. Voting is something. It’s the only voice many people have. If we don’t vote then why even bother with any of this. ?

." My guy, the Democrats have already thrown immigrants, Muslims, and LGBTQ+ people under the bus in their attempt to court conservatives. If you don't throw this water out now, who will be next?

Your problem is not with the democrats it’s with humanity.

 

[LiamGallaghersBucketHat]

And if you don't vote, can you really complain? Is not voting really saying something?

 

[Pergo]

Most likely, the end of the American empire and hegemony is the only hope. Whatever accelerates that process is good with me.

I'm curious what you believe the future looks like if you get your wish here? Is the idea that with the American empire gone that the rest of the world just says "ok cool, now that the American empire has ended, let's all get along and live peacefully for the first time in human history"? What does the world look like after the American empire has fallen and how would it improve things enough to offer hope?

 

[Nee Lewman]

I really am trying to figure out a better way to say this but I can’t. So… it’s ironic to me that everyone bitches about American Exceptionalism but then bitches when America can’t get whatever world problem fixed.

Obama was really onto something when he said that every problem that lands on the president’s desk is impossible. If it weren’t… it wouldn’t have ended up there.

 

[Nee Lewman]

And if you don't vote, can you really complain? Is not voting really saying something?

I guess that depends on the nature of your not voting. Is it just a protest and that’s all there is to it? Then no you don’t get to bitch, because you are no different than the person that doesn’t engage at all.

If however, you don’t vote and then do something… become an activist, join a local board, write letters to your representatives, form an action group, run for office… then I say you get to complain.

 

[Nee Lewman]

Hey @avecigrec there was a thumbnail for a Josh Johnson video about Mark Robinson in my YouTube feed:


I watched your Puffy video after that.

They play him off as just silly when he does bits on The Daily Show but I actually think maybe he should be the anchor now. Both pieces were powerful.

Thanks.

 

[ayayrawn]

Netanyahu is the most responsible person for the genocide.

I’m not going to argue with you that Biden and the U.S. have been enabling him more than not, but Biden is not ordering Israeli (or American) troops into Gaza to kill people. So no, he is absolutely not the person most singularly responsible.

Again, it’s a dishonest, at best, stance.

And yes there is actually a lesser evil in this election.

Hopefully where we are at is a call to the folks who aren’t young…. because gen z/alpha and even the younger millenials all seem to care a lot more than my generation or the fucking boomers did.

I still think this is giving Biden too much credit. He could end it tomorrow with a call. Nowadays it's pretty well-accepted that Nixon and Kissinger are mostly responsible for Cambodia and Bangladesh, so why kick that can down the road?

And if you don't vote, can you really complain? Is not voting really saying something?

Always found this take kind of weird. You could also frame it like you can't complain IF you vote. Like the candidates showed you who they were and that's ehat you wanted right?

I'm curious what you believe the future looks like if you get your wish here? Is the idea that with the American empire gone that the rest of the world just says "ok cool, now that the American empire has ended, let's all get along and live peacefully for the first time in human history"? What does the world look like after the American empire has fallen and how would it improve things enough to offer hope?

Going to have to start getting creative because the Earth is not going to withstand much more of what America is cooking.

 

[LiamGallaghersBucketHat]

I guess that depends on the nature of your not voting. Is it just a protest and that’s all there is to it? Then no you don’t get to bitch, because you are no different than the person that doesn’t engage at all.

If however, you don’t vote and then do something… become an activist, join a local board, write letters to your representatives, form an action group, run for office… then I say you get to complain.

Why would you write letters to your representatives if you didn't vote? If you aren't voting then you are part of the problem.
Imagine what this country would look like if all of the people who don't vote actually voted.