Political Discussion

I came across an intriguing article on Wired about climate change and the Atlantic Ocean’s collapse current. It was quite surprising to learn how controversial this topic is and how little the scientific community seems to be investing in it.

The World Scientific Board on Climate Change generally agrees that it won’t happen before 2100 and gives it a 1 out of 10 chance of occurring at medium confidence. One scientist summed it up perfectly: they really don’t know or understand it. Given the potential consequences, wouldn’t you want to figure it out?

In 2021, one team published a research paper suggesting it could happen sooner than we thought, but they didn’t provide a specific date. Another team released an academic research paper in 2023 using two different models they developed to estimate a date. One model predicted 2057, while the other kept falling on 2025 through 2095, with 2057 in the middle. This was quite surprising and concerning because if that’s the case, we should be putting in a lot more effort to understand what’s happening, how to delay it as long as possible, and prepare for the world after.

They released the paper expecting to be challenged and even wanted people to prove them wrong. However, instead, the scientific community dismissed them as foolish and their findings as highly controversial. The issue is that they used sea temperature recordings dating back to 1749, the age of sailing. Ships’ logs would record their location, water temperature, and the depth they took the reading at. How they measured this varied. It wasn’t until the 1970s with the deployment of buoys that sea surface temperatures had a standardized way of being measured.

Scientists have been collecting data on sea surface temperature from ship logs for years. But when it comes to using this data to make predictions in models, they’re not convinced. They say the data is incomplete and unreliable. Too many assumptions need to be made with statistical models to fill in the gaps, so they don’t think we should use it to predict when the ocean current could collapse. Basically, they’re saying we don’t have reliable data until the 1970s, and only the data from that decade and onwards should be used to make predictions like this. And even that’s not enough. They say we need a records dating back much further than the 1970s to even try to make predictions.

I agree with the scientists. With something as serious as this, wouldn’t we want to use any data available to try to figure this out? Using data dating back 150 years earlier than the 1950s is the only way we’re going to be able to even attempt to make predictions.
 
Those civilians aren't going to massacre themselves. Was only a matter of time before the US joined in directly.

Btw they're targetting UN peacekeepers in Lebanon now.

 
Netanyahu is the most responsible person for the genocide.

I’m not going to argue with you that Biden and the U.S. have been enabling him more than not, but Biden is not ordering Israeli (or American) troops into Gaza to kill people. So no, he is absolutely not the person most singularly responsible.

Again, it’s a dishonest, at best, stance.

And yes there is actually a lesser evil in this election.

Hopefully where we are at is a call to the folks who aren’t young…. because gen z/alpha and even the younger millenials all seem to care a lot more than my generation or the fucking boomers did.
Man, Biden has the most power on the planet, is providing the bombs, and is the only one with power over Netanyahu and the only one who can stop him. It is absolutely inane to deny that. That makes him most responsible. He's quite literally at the top of the decision-making chain. Just because his decision is "I won't stop you" doesn't mean that's not a decision.

The lesser evil is in power now and is responsible for all of this. If you as Americans and as voters do not push them to end it now, in the few weeks before the election when they actually need you, they will see no need to stop and the genocide will continue. You guys need to start punching up.

The young people liberals and Democrats are berating for not lining up behind these genocidaires are the ones those genocidaires need to listen to. It will not be their fault if Kamala loses; it will be Kamala's.



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Man, Biden has the most power on the planet, is providing the bombs, and is the only one with power over Netanyahu and the only one who can stop him. It is absolutely inane to deny that. That makes him most responsible. He's quite literally at the top of the decision-making chain. Just because his decision is "I won't stop you" doesn't mean that's not a decision.

The lesser evil is in power now and is responsible for all of this. If you as Americans and as voters do not push them to end it now, in the few weeks before the election when they actually need you, they will see no need to stop and the genocide will continue. You guys need to start punching up.

The young people you berating for not lining up behind these genocidaires are the ones those genocidaires need to listen to. It will not be their fault if Kamala loses; it will be Kamala's.



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When and where have I berated young folks?
 
Look. I think we should stop arming them at this point.

I also think the folks who don’t want to support Israel are in the minority here. Sure the pro-Palestine movement is loud, but they are not a significant portion of the population.

I think older Americans could do more, I just don’t think they care… I think older populations are more likely to be isolationist and conservative.

If you don’t believe me, just watch Bill Mahr’s condescending piece on the history of the are from this past weekend.

Harris does state that Palestine needs its own security which is more than Biden has done. Trump will send America into the war (and not 100 soldiers which seems more of a way to make sure Netanyahu doesn’t use those missles to strike at targets instead of as defensive tools)
 
Look. I think we should stop arming them at this point.

I also think the folks who don’t want to support Israel are in the minority here. Sure the pro-Palestine movement is loud, but they are not a significant portion of the population.

I think older Americans could do more, I just don’t think they care… I think older populations are more likely to be isolationist and conservative.

If you don’t believe me, just watch Bill Mahr’s condescending piece on the history of the are from this past weekend.

Harris does state that Palestine needs its own security which is more than Biden has done. Trump will send America into the war (and not 100 soldiers which seems more of a way to make sure Netanyahu doesn’t use those missles to strike at targets instead of as defensive tools)
The vast majority of democrats disapprove of Israel's actions in Gaza and have an unfavorable opinion on Netanyahu. Probably more now considering this was June. This is political capital being left on the table.


 
Look. I think we should stop arming them at this point.

I also think the folks who don’t want to support Israel are in the minority here. Sure the pro-Palestine movement is loud, but they are not a significant portion of the population.
That may be what you deem to be the vibe, but this is simply not true.

"And in June, when more than 30,000 Palestinians were killed and as Israel continued its operations in Rafah where many of Gaza civilians had been sheltering, [...] a third CBS News poll seemingly solidified Americans’ opposition to military aid to Israel with 61 percent of American adults calling for a halt on weapons transfers to Israel, including 77 percent of Democrats.

Stopping arms transfers also polls highly in key swing states, according to recent polls.

A poll published this week by the libertarian think tank Cato Institute found that the majority of likely voters in some Rust Belt swing states are in favor of conditioning military aid to Israel or are against sending aid altogether. The tallies showed 61 percent in Wisconsin expressing support, along with 56 percent in Michigan and 51 percent in Pennsylvania."

The Intercept

Selling arms to Israel and not imposing a ceasefire is a massive own-goal by the Democrats. It is truly as simple as that.
 
More recent polling shows a different picture:

Americans are pretty much split between “don’t know”, “going too far”, or “it’s the right approach/not enough” (like it or not a third of Americans approve of the current strategy or escalation)

Yes democrats are more likely to think it has gone too far.

Most people want a diplomatic solution. Biden says he is working on that. Harris says she will do that and supports a two state solution. Trump will probably send us there to annihilate Hamas/Hezbollah, diplomacy is his absolute weak point.

Most democrats aren’t going to not vote or vote for Trump over this issue. It is not a defining issue of the campaign.

Talking about the issue and engaging with our leaders is pressing them on the issue. This is what I liked about Roan’s response to all of this… both sides have issues, I’m not endorsing anyone. When she received backlash, she stated she was voting for Harris which is kind of a non-endorsement when taken at face value because she still didn’t say you should, but rather said this is what I am doing.

At the end of the day, on this issue, you have the choice of “hawkish” (I would disagree on this, she has been careful not to step on her boss’s work while saying Palestine also needs to be supported) and the guy who invited Netanyahu to dinner & is extremely hawkish on the issue.

I’m not gonna vote for the greater evil just because the lesser evil hasn’t been able to finish the job.

I have a hard time understanding why that is so hard to comprehend.
 
No sure Harris won't either considering how Hawkish she's been on the trail. A foreign policy plan with a Cheney stamp of approval should be sounding alarms for all of us.
If one believes that Trump and Harris are the same on this issue which seems to be the belief of some people, then what should a voter do?

Do they protest and choose to not vote for anyone? Becoming a single issue voter? Tossing aside issues where the divide is much more stark between the two candidates?

If Trump is reelected and starts rounding up brown people (and god knows who else), putting them in camps, doesn’t that matter? Trump uses The Comstock Act to further limit a woman’s right to choose. Trump sells out our country to corporate interests to further pollute and destroy the Earth. Trump fires all government employees that have not pledged their allegiance to MAGA. Does any of that stuff matter?

I am not claiming that the US support of Israel is unimportant, what I am saying is, if this issue is not being addressed in a satisfactory way by either party then doesn’t it make sense to look beyond that single issue and instead focus on the other 2,383,988 issues where Trump and Harris differ greatly and support the candidate that most aligns with their values. One of those two people will be sworn in as POTUS on January 20, 2025, that decision will affect the lives of many people. Saying “fuck it” seems irresponsible.

If anyone thinks that the Dems and MAGA are the same have traveled too far around the bend. Suggesting they are the same only provides cover to MAGA.
 
You think US Foreign policy in the Middle East is bad now under Biden, wait till Trump gets back in there. You haven’t seen anything yet.
It IS bad under Biden right now, and Trump looming about does not make it any better. That we have a dem president further to the right of Reagan on this issue should deeply concern everybody. This tightening of the ratchet, and increased party-wide tolerance for evermore horrible shit is completely unsustainable.
 
I’m not gonna vote for the greater evil just because the lesser evil hasn’t been able to finish the job.

I have a hard time understanding why that is so hard to comprehend.
I have a hard time understanding why it is so hard to comprehend that not voting (if you live in a swing state) is the same as voting for the greater evil because, like it or not one of those two people will be elected president.
 
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