Political Discussion

[Nee Lewman]

I think Israel would keep on doing regardless of who your incumbent was because I think neither was willing to do what was necessary. Ukraine is fucked.

Yeah, they are going to do it with US support now. That’s the thing that I don’t think outsiders and the folks who decided not to vote or foolishly participated in vote swaps realize yet.

The shipment of bombs that has been held back will be sent Jan 20th, if not sooner. If the war doesn’t end in the next year, I fully expect US troops to be deployed.

 

[Joe Mac]

So the dem party is done right? This is probably the most catastrophic failure by a major party worldwide in memory. Can we get an actual opposition party now pls? Clearly offering business as usual and inching rightward and befriending some of the most unpopular conservatives in the country doesn't work, so can we get a party that's actually going to do something, and then not shrug their shoulders when they botch a layup again?

It’s the worst failure I remember since probably 1992 when the Labour Party somehow managed to let a hated Tory party immediately post Thatcher win.

 

[mdmost]

If the first 2 years of Trump's administration don't go well for the average voter, the Democrats will do well in the midterms. The opposite happened in 1994 with Clinton and 2010 with Obama. Less people vote in the midterms than the presidential race.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

I don't think progressivism was going to save this thing from Trump. 2016 was already played by Trump as liberalism=socialism. Look at how AOC was attacked when she was first starting out. Supposedly the "Kamala is for they/them, Trump is for we" ads played really well as did plenty of anti-trans ads this cycle. Any tilt to the left was going to be easily attacked when you have people ingesting right wing bile all day online. I'm sadly of the mindset that perhaps things need to get worse for whole segments of our society so people will wake up and realize just how played we've all been by corporations and oligarchs. Maybe things getting worse will break the cycle but I'm not very hopeful given now that side has absolutely no restrictions placed on them and have been totally vindicated in their actions by the election results.

2016 was a very different beast and it's hard to explain the appeal Bernie had to the disillusioned unless you were there. He had a coalition that would have beaten Trump specifically because he had the firm backing of the working class, the youth and the Latino communities that aren't Cuban. Yes, he would have gotten slaughtered in the south and some suburbanites would have gone to Trump. He also would have held the blue wall. He was viewed as authentic and as somebody who actually cared-- while also filling a lot of the rage quota that Trump hits.

2020 is a completely different story because half of the Democratic party blamed him for Trump winning in 2016. But that's because the DNC is incapable of any self reflection and has, as it's #1 priority, maintaining the status quo.

So now, we have a bunch of former Sanders supporters who left the Democratic Party, have gone back to not voting or eventually wound up in the arms of Trump.

 

[ayayrawn]

Yeah, they are going to do it with US support now. That’s the thing that I don’t think outsiders and the folks who decided not to vote or foolishly participated in vote swaps realize yet.

The shipment of bombs that has been held back will be sent Jan 20th, if not sooner. If the war doesn’t end in the next year, I fully expect US troops to be deployed.

They've been doing it with US support this whole entire time, and since at least the 50s/60s.

very unlikely, not only would establishment democrats fight tooth and nail against it but also the republican party would likely fight to keep the status quo.

It’s the worst failure I remember since probably 1992 when the Labour Party somehow managed to let a hated Tory party immediately post Thatcher win.

You have to wonder how much of it is sheer incompetence and how is controlled opposition. Can't upset the status quo too bad or you upset your cash flow. I know many here would like to be optimistic about the party and give it the benefit of the doubt, but I'm pretty much done with it.

 

[TenderLovingKiller®]

2016

2020

[sighs]

 

[mdmost]

2016 was a very different beast and it's hard to explain the appeal Bernie had to the disillusioned unless you were there. He had a coalition that would have beaten Trump specifically because he had the firm backing of the working class, the youth and the Latino communities that aren't Cuban. Yes, he would have gotten slaughtered in the south and some suburbanites would have gone to Trump. He also would have held the blue wall. He was viewed as authentic and as somebody who actually cared-- while also filling a lot of the rage quota that Trump hits.

2020 is a completely different story because half of the Democratic party blamed him for Trump winning in 2016. But that's because the DNC is incapable of any self reflection.

Well, I was there and I will disagree that Bernie would've beaten Trump. Socialism is scary to the average voter and Trump would have perfectly painted Bernie as an out of control socialist who would destroy this country and tank the economy. Fear is what sells. Not hope. That died with Obama.

 

[LiamGallaghersBucketHat]

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Well, I was there and I will disagree that Bernie would've beaten Trump. Socialism is scary to the average voter and Trump would have perfectly painted Bernie as an out of control socialist who would destroy this country and tank the economy.

And now, I may get condescending:

You were also convinced Kamala was going to win. And, I'd bet, were convinced that Hilary had it in the bag.

I don't mean there, as in you remember it. I mean, there, as in-- you were on the ground door knocking, talking to unregistered voters all around the country.

After a 2 month stint in NV, I called my dad in October of 2015 and told him two things-- Trump was going to be the GOP nominee and it wasn't going to be close. And that he would win if Clinton was the nominee.

His response was "well David Brooks says".

The reason that the polls keep underestimating Trump is the same reason that Bernie Sanders over-performed basically every poll during the 2016 primaries. They activated traditional non-voters who were disillusioned with the system and that polling doesn't prioritize. The coalition was there to win even if the popular vote might have been closer due to places like the south running up the tally for Trump. WI & MI would have been won.

 

[TenderLovingKiller®]

They've been doing it with US support this whole entire time, and since at least the 50s/60s.




You have to wonder how much of it is sheer incompetence abd how is controlled opposition. Can't upset the status quo too bad or you upset your cash flow. I know many here would like to be optimistic about the party and give it the benefit of the doubt, but I'm pretty much done with it.

Maybe someone will provide a valid opposition party at some point. Rank Choice voting would help a lot but the duopoly is the confines we work with until a grass roots movement actually wins elections, the only other option is to have someone work from within the Democratic Party and reshape it into some more substantive similarly to the way Trump’s MAGA movement has over taken the GOP from within.

It’s interesting to speculate 2 days following a Dem loss but no one predicted Trump after Romney lost in 2012 who knows what will happen over the next few years to shape parties and elections of the future.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Maybe someone will provide a valid opposition party at some point. Rank Choice voting would help a lot but the duopoly is the confines we work with until a grass roots movement actually wins elections, the only other option is to have someone work from within the Democratic Party and reshape it into some more substantive similarly to the way Trump’s MAGA movement has over taken the GOP from within. MAGA.

It’s interesting to speculate 2 days following a Dem loss but no predicted Trump after Romney lost in 2012 who knows what will happen over the next few years to shape parties and elections of the future.

I was very surprised that CO said no to ranked choice voting on Tuesday. I have no idea what the ads were like in opposition to it though.

 

[mdmost]

You were also convinced Kamala was going to win. And, I'd bet, were convinced that Hilary had it in the bag.

You're right. I sadly thought Americans were decent people who cared about more than just themselves. Instead, we're myopic, misinformed creatures motivated by fear.

 

[Nee Lewman]

They've been doing it with US support this whole entire time, and since at least the 50s/60s.

They’ve had the western world since the end of WWII which is how we got here. That’s has been crumbling under Netanyahu. It dissolved as the war progressed. Half assed US support is not the same as full throated US Support.

I don’t understand how this is so hard to get.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

You're right. I sadly thought Americans were decent people who cared about more than just themselves. Instead, we're misinformed creatures motivated by fear.

Yup and a lot of that is the result of 8 years of work shopping. I also don't think it's fear. It's anger of over the failures of the system. Things learned from the ways in which Bernie and Trump harnessed social media. And the ways in which podcasters like Rogan who have fed misinformation. Of note, Rogan's rightward spiral can be directly linked back to the mainstream media and DNC's attacks on him after he endorsed Bernie in 2020.

As somebody who spent 15 years on the ground working political campaigns before hitting eject in 2020--- Bernie's campaign was one of a kind it it's ability to fuse justified rage with hope that the political process could bring change. It dwarfed the activism of Obama 08- which was much more superficial in its demands.

He had insanely high approval ratings with independents compared to Clinton. He had the youth working for him ala Obama. And he had the traditional non-voter. The thing he didn't have was the DNC diehard and that group grew more resentful over time towards him due to Clinton losing. But the reality is she won on the back of proud Democrats and he still made it close without almost any of those voters support. So the question is, do you think die hard Dems would have refused to support him had he been the nominee? Because if they had gotten behind him, he would have won. .

The only pause I have is the complete meltdown the corporate press would have had.

 

[RenegadeMonster]

 

[ayayrawn]

They’ve had the western world since the end of WWII which is how we got here. That’s has been crumbling under Netanyahu. It dissolved as the war progressed. Half assed US support is not the same as full throated US Support.

I don’t understand how this is so hard to get.

I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Israel has been the US's imperical stronghold in the middle east for half a century. Criticizing it in government gets you blacklisted. We've sent them about 300 billion since then, 18 billion of that in the last 12 months while they're commiting some of the worst atrocities of our lifetime. To call current US support of Israel half assed is delusional.

 

[Turbo]

Yeah look I said why I posted it there, maybe people disagree, that’s fine, I’m fucking enraged at people reporting it, it’s pathetic, especially given how fluid discussion is on everything across the forum.

Fuck that. Your clearly political post didn't belong in the café and I asked for it to get moved. I didn't ask for it to be censored. Just moved. Sure it was "satire", but it covered the same arguments that have been been going on in this thread for weeks. There was no need for it to go in the café and to spread that conversation in there. That conversation is perfectly fine in here.

Thanks for calling me pathetic, I won't forget.

 

[TenderLovingKiller®]

Yup and a lot of that is the result of 8 years of work shopping. I also don't think it's fear. It's anger of over the failures of the system. Things learned from the ways in which Bernie and Trump harnessed social media.

As somebody who spent 15 years on the ground working political campaigns before hitting eject in 2020--- Bernie's campaign was one of a kind it it's ability to fuse justified rage with hope that the political process could bring change. It dwarfed the activism of Obama 08- which was much more superficial in its demands.

He had insanely high approval ratings with independents compared to Clinton. He had the youth working for him ala Obama. And he had the traditional non-voter. The thing he didn't have was the DNC diehard and that group grew more resentful over time towards him due to Clinton losing. But the reality is she won on the back of proud Democrats and he still made it close without almost any of those voters support. So the question is, do you think die hard Dems would have refused to support him had he been the nominee? Because if they had gotten behind him, he would have won. Point blank.

Again talking about 2016. This is like having a debate about if a shark or a bear would win in a fight. It’s all speculation and while it might be fun it accomplishes very little.

 

[ayayrawn]

Yeah look I said why I posted it there, maybe people disagree, that’s fine, I’m fucking enraged at people reporting it, it’s pathetic, especially given how fluid discussion is on everything across the forum.

Fuck that. Your clearly political post didn't belong in the café and I asked for it to get moved. I didn't ask for it to be censored. Just moved. Sure it was "satire", but it covered the same arguments that have been been going on in this thread for weeks. There was no need for it to go in the café and to spread that conversation in there. That conversation is perfectly fine in here.

Thanks for calling me pathetic, I won't forget.

All this over one post. come one.

 

[Nee Lewman]

I literally have no idea what you're talking about. Israel has been the US's imperical stronghold in the middle east for half a century. Criticizing it in government gets you blacklisted. We've sent them about 300 billion since then, 18 billion of that in the last 12 months while they're commiting some of the worst atrocities of our lifetime. To call current US support of Israel half assed is delusional.

I’m not gonna argue the first three sentences, we agree.

Trump has already told him to do what he has to do. Biden and Blinken were trying to find a diplomatic solution and withheld some support.

There will be no more withholding. A search for a diplomatic solution will end by the end of January, if not sooner. There will be no more threats to do something if the humanitarian climate is not improved.

There will be no more talk about a two party solution. We will send troops to the ground.

I don’t like the way Biden handled it. Never have said I supported it. What I have said over and over is that this as a single issue vote is absolute insanity BECAUSE IT WILL MOST DEFINITELY DETERIORATE.

And if you need proof look no further than Trump’s words beyond telling Netanyahu to do what he has to do, he also said that the Russian war needs to end to save lives. He has never said anything about the Israeli war ending, he has hawkishly supported it, and claimed that he is the Jew’s greatest ally. He has tried and will again to dismantle NATO. And he will have the full support of congress now! He doesn’t just need to utilize the Marine Corps to actively join the war.