Political Discussion

Indymisanthrope said:
That's why I bristle a bit at statements that there's no scenario that could be worse than the one we're in, because (I believe) that sentiment counterintuitively makes people manufacture even worse scenarios in their minds and start down the path of thinking that, well, relative to this other imaginary outcome, what's happening isn't as bad.

But clearly, it's very bad. We don't have to affix any superlatives to it to agree on that point.

The Israel problem must be reckoned with. But I'm not confident that history will look kindly on us if, having withdrawn our support from an ally to whom we made a promise, their adversaries eliminate them. History may not look kindly on us no matter what we do at this point.

I think there are likely hundreds of factors at play for why the US is on this path. I don't think that a lust for genocide is among them, personally. What I would like to believe is that this is a situation in which people with more strategic vision than me have concluded that there are no 'good' choices now that do not result in outcomes that are even worse. Worse for whom, and worse how? Valid questions.

I'm not a game theorist, or a Middle East policy expert. I just want to be clear that my thoughts about why my country's leaders are continuing to let this happen are not an attempt to justify it, but to understand it.
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Well, yes, it's been quite apparent for a very long time that the U.S. is continuing to allow and to fund this because Israel plays a fundamental strategic role in American foreign policy in the Middle East. I don't think anyone is saying the U.S. has a "lust for genocide," only that it is clearly willing to allow it in service of empire. Obviously history isn't looking kindly on the U.S. or Israel! It's not looking kindly on it now!
 
Indymisanthrope said:
100%. So what's the answer? There are children in Israel too.
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Exactly. So a bit like with the North there needs to be a fudge. The occupation may have been wrong but it’s too established and entrenched to just fuck them out of it.

The answer is the same it has always been, a two state solution with Jerusalem as an independent city state under the control of neither. We just need to commit to this and to potentially sanctioning our ally to achieve it.
 
RenegadeMonster said:
www.marketwatch.com

Here’s what Gen Z wants employers to know about how they work

Gen Z’s distrust of institutions puts it on a collision course with management.
www.marketwatch.com www.marketwatch.com

I saw this article being discussed elsewhere and one common theme I saw from Boomers was that Gen Z is going to get a serious wake up call. And this mindset in the work place is only going to get them fired and hopefully they will learn.

Many went on to post about how their employers have fired Gen Z people over posts on social media calling out their employer for prioritizing profits over what is right and ethical.

I strongly believe in what Gen Z is trying to do and bring attention too. I wonder if it will help bring about change or just lead to more frequent job changes for Gen Z?
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Golly these articles are very familiar to what I heard when I entered the workforce. I think the boomers don't realize they didn't completely beat my generation down with their disdain.
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ETA: lol the comments on that article. I have no time for "phones bad"/"young people stupid" discourse.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
That only takes care of 50% of the parties involved. Much of the remaining 50% is still governed, to the extent that there is still anything left to govern, by a body that is dedicated to the complete destruction of our ally.
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Well actually no because it’s as clear as day that our ally is governed by people who are dedicated to the complete destruction of the notion of Palestine and the idea of Palestinians as a distinct group of people.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
That only takes care of 50% of the parties involved. Much of the remaining 50% is still governed, to the extent that there is still anything left to govern, by a body that is dedicated to the complete destruction of our ally.
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I’ve begun watching the Daily Show again and Jon put forth a “solution” seems reasonable which was for a demilitarized zone between the two countries that would be controlled by a collation on middle eastern countries. Problem is no country in their right mind would want to stick their military in between these two warring factions. Also, that would only account for Gaza and not the West Bank.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
So we're back to 0%?
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Well we can’t allow the entire area to be annexed by Israel. Palestine needs to exist but can’t exist in a larger greater Palestine pre Israel state. Nothing is ideal here. But the only game in town is a two state solution and the big barrier to that is the intransigence of your ally.

Peace needs to be found. Ordinary people in both countries want to no longer have to wake up to their children dying. That might take a begrudging peace. It might take a tenuous peace. It might take both sides being equally discommoded and grumbling. But a fragile peace can be found and held if America leans hard enough on Israel.

The current situation is the worst of all worlds and cannot be tolerated any longer.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
I think it’s for the best TBH, Trump is going to lose since, theoretically; if they were to uphold his immunity claim, Biden could have all the conservative Supreme Court justices murdered on his way out of office if he so chose and would not be held accountable. It’s should be early enough that these cases should be still be able to move forward without much delay.

If the courts chose not to rule this sort of thing could continue to pop up. This should end it for now.
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Don't count on Alito or Thomas to rule against this. If presidents have complete immunity, we might as well shut it down as a country. This is some scary shit right here.
 
Twentytwo said:
Don't count on Alito or Thomas to rule against this. If presidents have complete immunity, we might as well shut it down as a country. This is some scary shit right here.
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If they rule in favor then Biden might as well just have them all killed. What would stop him other than his idiotic belief that Republicans would never do that if they could?
 
Twentytwo said:
Don't count on Alito or Thomas to rule against this. If presidents have complete immunity, we might as well shut it down as a country. This is some scary shit right here.
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Yeah, Biden is still president though. If they granted King/God status to the Presidency then Biden would also have criminal immunity. Alito and Thomas better get their Billionaire BFF’s to build them one heck of a bunker to hide in..
 
Hemotep said:
Of course, I wouldn't put it past the craven idiots on the Supreme Court to do just that.
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They would essentially end all check and balances and completely cede any power they have as an all powerful/corrupt Executive would have an axe hanging over their heads on every decision they made. SCOTUS even the most craven of the bunch wouldn’t be willing to give up that power.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
That's all a matter of perspective though, isn't it?

And look, I'm not trying to legitimize the Zionist viewpoint here, but *from their perspective,* Gaza is governed by an organization whose official platform refuses to acknowledge the existence of Israel, refuses any two state solution, and swears to pursue its destruction by any means possible including attacks like 10/7.

Obviously, Israel has the arms & wealth here that make them the target of most of the criticism on this point, for good reason, but it's not like Hamas is a dove either.
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Its difficult. But it is possible to come to agreements between parties that were previously reject. It’s even possible to have parties who don’t believe in the legitimacy of a state act within its institutions to represent their people and ensure peace. Even if it’s rarely smooth or perfectly ideal.

What we need here is pressure on both sides and an honest broker.

America, and Britain, cannot be that honest broker here. They also can’t put the pressure on Palestinians and Hamas. They have no legitimacy, they deserve no legitimacy. We have to stop dictating to the Arab world and to start to build strategic alliances and use that to have parties with legacy put that pressure on the other side.

On Hamas, I agree with you totally. But people only turn to and support that when there is no other avenue. Consider that Isreal has operated strategically to destroy the PLO and to prop up Hamas to destroy the credibility of a two state system in the wider world.
 
Indymisanthrope said:
I would love to believe this but I think it assumes facts not in evidence. It doesn't negate the need for the US to do this, but why do we think, after all that has transpired, that there's no retaliation in the cards?
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I live in a country that a portion of is living proof that there is enough pressure from each side, a broker and a genuine desire to stop bloodshed that a peace, no matter how fragile, begrudging and arkward, can be found. It involves America putting serious pressure on Israel though and I don’t know if there is the appetite to do that.
 
Joe Mac said:
I live in a country that a portion of is living proof that there is enough pressure from each side, a broker and a genuine desire to stop bloodshed that a peace, no matter how fragile, begrudging and arkward, can be found. It involves America putting serious pressure on Israel though and I don’t know if there is the appetite to do that.
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Would Ireland be able to work as a peace broker given their experience? Have they attempted to previously? It seems like they could offer a relatable perspective. Isn’t Sin Fein a legitimate party now? Maybe get a small envoy of Catholics and Protestants peacemakers try to press for peace using their experience as an example?

Would that be a possibility?
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
Would Ireland be able to work as a peace broker given their experience? Have they attempted to previously? It seems like they could offer a relatable perspective. Isn’t Sin Fein a legitimate party now? Maybe get a small envoy of Catholics and Protestants peacemakers try to press for peace using their experience as an example?

Would that be a possibility?
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As a country our influence is beyond our size because of three things. One that we’re militarily neutral and so not a threat. Two that we’re in the EU and seen as a sensible intermediary and three because we have a disproportionate influence in the US in relation to our size because of the diaspora. I don’t think we have the heft because of that.

Also Irish and Arab nationalism have pretty strong historical and ideological backgrounds beginning with attempts to cede from the empire in the early 20th century. The Irish populace is overwhelmingly pro Palestine. As a result relations with Israel, which was never great thanks to other things like Mossad’s propensity to use fake Irish passports, is in the toilet right now. I don’t see them even remotely accepting that.

As for unionists and republicans coming together. They’re just about barely holding a parliament together and still pretty much despise each other. It’s very much still a begrudging, strained peace, but at least no one is planting bombs anymore. The real achievement there is that the British government didn’t destroy that peace with brexit. That caused some serious issues surrounding the open border between the two jurisdictions on the island. It blew up the parliament in the north for a few years but thank god didn’t destroy the peace.
 
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RenegadeMonster said:
View attachment 196633

How Boomers view Gen Z and Millennia's. That they require a more luxurious life than they did when they were the same age, and that is why they can't afford to pay off their student loans or buy a house.

Also, "I-PHONE"? Okay boomer...
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Reality is closer to me, 200k student loan debt, cut my own hair to save money, no ink, makes all my coffee at home, cheap android phone, clothes from clearance at Macy's.








Just don't look at my vinyl collection, Boomers. It's not why I'm poor, I swear.
 
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