Vinyl Me Please Classics

Pressing is flat and floor is silent. Very dynamic. Will be cool to crank later this weekend when wife is not working.

Having some Art Ensemble of Chicago in my collection now, this is not OUT THERE but it is still a pretty difficult listen.
 
Giving Shape a second spin.

This has been one of those project albums for me. I bought a copy on CD after taking an intro to jazz course in college. I’ve never really been able to get into it. I wonder why.

Art Ensemble is a truly free jazz and I get why I don’t really get it. Is my issue with Shape that this was my first avant garde album and I had not figured out how to release myself to the music. I would do this years later on the old forum with Dolphy’s Out to Lunch and not even things like Sun Ship have phased me since (I have not attempted ascension yet so I know there is that waiting for me)…. Maybe. Gioia certainly leads me to think that way. I’m not the most emotional listener anyhow which may be why Art Ensemble is so foreign to me.

I also think that I struggle with it knowing now that there is form and structure here along with chord progression. My mind is trying to process that like it is fully duped by Coleman’s method here. Gioia would still say this is me not giving in to its emotional context but I’m not so sure. Like maybe subconsciously I’ve always known the structures are there.

I also feel bad for the folks who not only think there is too much Jazz this year but also had to contend with this and Sun Ship.
 
Lee Newman said:
Giving Shape a second spin.

This has been one of those project albums for me. I bought a copy on CD after taking an intro to jazz course in college. I’ve never really been able to get into it. I wonder why.

Art Ensemble is a truly free jazz and I get why I don’t really get it. Is my issue with Shape that this was my first avant garde album and I had not figured out how to release myself to the music. I would do this years later on the old forum with Dolphy’s Out to Lunch and not even things like Sun Ship have phased me since (I have not attempted ascension yet so I know there is that waiting for me)…. Maybe. Gioia certainly leads me to think that way. I’m not the most emotional listener anyhow which may be why Art Ensemble is so foreign to me.

I also think that I struggle with it knowing now that there is form and structure here along with chord progression. My mind is trying to process that like it is fully duped by Coleman’s method here. Gioia would still say this is me not giving in to its emotional context but I’m not so sure. Like maybe subconsciously I’ve always known the structures are there.

I also feel bad for the folks who not only think there is too much Jazz this year but also had to contend with this and Sun Ship.
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The older I get the more I’ve accepted that sometimes we just don’t like certain things. I’ve tried and tried to understand and enjoy Trout Mask Replica. But at the end of the day I just have to accept that I just don’t like it. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

I adore Shape of Jazz and I’m not a huge free jazz guy. The presence of structure actually helps my brain latch onto and follow the music. I can follow Don and Ornette as they dance around the chord progression but there’s still that safety net present for me to rest on.
 
jfitzy said:
The older I get the more I’ve accepted that sometimes we just don’t like certain things. I’ve tried and tried to understand and enjoy Trout Mask Replica. But at the end of the day I just have to accept that I just don’t like it. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

I adore Shape of Jazz and I’m not a huge free jazz guy. The presence of structure actually helps my brain latch onto and follow the music. I can follow Don and Ornette as they dance around the chord progression but there’s still that safety net present for me to rest on.
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It’s not really that I don’t like it. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Art Ensemble I don’t like. Trout Mask I am undecided on (actually, that one I am convinced needs drugs). It’s not offensive. It’s challenging and I like that about it.
 
So, I added Shape to my weekly playlist (new practice, I blame @Ghost ) Anywho, tonight the power went out before I woke up to get dinner on and stuff. After a run to get food for the fam and getting ready for work, it had let off at Shape for the ride into work. I backed it up to Lonely Woman - it was a perfect moment for the song - dark, deserted, storm tossed streets. I felt the song in a way, I have never felt it before. Eventually still might as well be in Russian to me, it makes no sense, is it supposed to be whimsical...

Peace, though that was another matter. First off, the chord bursts remind me of some things Marsalis was doing in the 90s that I had taken to be a bit of modern New Orleans idiom... wondering if it had its start here (I'm also doing some intensive listening to the Armstrong's Hot Fives and Sevens and would not be suprised if it shows up in that - that project is cause of Gioia. I want to, but won't do his project where he only listens to Dixieland and pre Armstrong Jass for a couple of weeks and then comes back to it - that's a tangent probably better suited for the Jazz thread though.) The other thing that stood out was Haden's bassline. Someone years ago told me that the key to Free Jazz is the Bassline. Again, while we know Shape is not free per se... we do know that it is pretty much the origin of it. Haden's bassline is a constant through out and somehow brings unity to the bursts and atonal flurishes and odd takes on what might be a melody in the music. In the reading, I've been doing on Shape, it sounds like a lot of focus is put on this method with the album...

All of this is to say, with at least those two songs, the damn thing might be opening up to me after 30 years of time spent on it...

Also, I've said this elsewhere, usually in a reaction to A Love Surpeme - "getting" and "liking" are two different things.

Shape doesn't make sense to me, it isn't offensive and its important enough that I keep going back to it. I've never really disliked it, but haven't unlocked it enough or liked it enough to be wowed by it (which is interesting because later Coleman - even Free Jazz and Song X make sense to me.) I've wrestled with this album but know that there is something there or I would have given up on it. (I mean at this point, I give Trout Mask Replica an annual listen, but absolutely nothing about that makes sense and there are places where I actively dislike it.)

This question might be best directed at @Jbraswell but does listening to the Contemporary stuff help place context on Shape? Did it truly come from nowhere or are the seeds there?
 
I got it, like I see Shape as an intellectual enterprise not necessarily an album I throw on to lose myself in (although that's clearly what's need) or as background music. It stimulates my mind in a way other albums don't which is why I keep returning to it. I want to figure it out.
 
TenderLovingKiller® said:
I feel you with Trout Mask Replica, I keeps revisiting it every now and then as it feels like something I should really love but I am 40 and it’s charm still escapes me.
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I would describe Trout Mask as an intellectual masterpiece, but not a car radio masterpiece. Unfortunately, I am apparently not intellectual enough to get it, but I do have a copy and try.

Free jazz - different story. It's the opposite of intellectual, it requires release - letting the music flow over you and through you, releasing the ego, focusing on the beat while letting the horns flow on top. I can see it being tough for someone maybe locked into early bebop though.

The Ornette - not free, but just focused on melody, rather than changes, once you stop listening for the changes, it might start to come together. There is a lot of counterpoint and call/response in Ornette's music. I find Ornette's Contemporary albums to be not all that interesting compared to later ones, and he was obviously constrained by the conservativism of the label, but I can see thrm as being a decent jumping off point.
 
RHANDMJ said:
I would describe Trout Mask as an intellectual masterpiece, but not a car radio masterpiece. Unfortunately, I am apparently not intellectual enough to get it, but I do have a copy and try.

Free jazz - different story. It's the opposite of intellectual, it requires release - letting the music flow over you and through you, releasing the ego, focusing on the beat while letting the horns flow on top. I can see it being tough for someone maybe locked into early bebop though.

The Ornette - not free, but just focused on melody, rather than changes, once you stop listening for the changes, it might start to come together. There is a lot of counterpoint and call/response in Ornette's music. I find Ornette's Contemporary albums to be not all that interesting compared to later ones, and he was obviously constrained by the conservativism of the label, but I can see thrm as being a decent jumping off point.
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My understanding of what people like about Art Ensemble is their clever humor. Clearly sometimes their is an intellectual component. Either that (and the or is completely possible) or the people who espouse this nonsense are just trying to feel better about the nonsense of their music.
 
Lee Newman said:
One other question, maybe @Selaws is the person to direct it to, is there a book on The Shape of Jazz to Come like there are on A Love Supreme and Kind of Blue?
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Hmmm great question. Not that I'm aware of to be honest. There are a few great books written about Coleman and free jazz in general that I can recommend though.

Freedom Principle: Jazz After 1958 by John Litweiler - A great read that begins with a detailed analysis of Coleman and his style of playing, and then develops into a study of how this then influenced the likes of Eric Dolphy, John Coltrane, etc.

As Serious As Your Life: Black Music and the Free Jazz Revolution, 1957–1977 by Val Wilmer - One of the better jazz-related books that I've read. Again, this focuses on Coleman and branches into Coltrane, Sun Ra, Albert Ayler, etc.

Ornette Coleman: The Territory and the Adventure by Maria Golia - Have to admit that I have not yet read this but it is high up on my list and has great reviews.

It might not be too much help but I actually started really appreciating free jazz after getting to grips with the more technical aspects of 'straight-ahead' jazz. I understand the points raised about loosening up and agree to an extent, but there is still a considerable amount of technical work at play with free jazz that does benefit from a more intellectual/technical understanding. Although it's often portrayed as musicians just making nonsensical noises, there are still 'rules' the musicians abide by, musical interplay, anticipating musical directions, and improvisation. I've read a ton of books over the years that have helped me understand this a bit more than I did before, but I do recommend How to Listen to Jazz by Ted Gioia. Its a book I wish I had read much sooner and whilst it might be basic to musicians, for a non-musician such as myself its a real eye opener.
 
Speaking of, I got around to listening to the VMP pressing of The Shape Of Jazz To Come earlier today.

I'm fortunate enough to have a first Stereo pressing that I compared it to and I have to say that they have done a fantastic job in my opinion. It was a nice surprise to see it was a mono pressing first of all. The artwork is pretty spot on with a decent high-quality print (unlike some of the VMP ones of the past - Blossom Dearie, Archie Shepp, etc). The pressing itself is really killer and is so clear/silent. I would say that its one of the better releases from the Classic series.

I'm not going to be getting rid of my Stereo pressing yet, but the VMP pressing will be getting plenty of time on my turntable!

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Lee Newman said:
My understanding of what people like about Art Ensemble is their clever humor. Clearly sometimes their is an intellectual component. Either that (and the or is completely possible) or the people who espouse this nonsense are just trying to feel better about the nonsense of their music.
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Art Ensemble are magnificent players and there is an element of wry humor, and fleeting quotations from jazz history, in their music. But once again, it is music I will listen to once, enjoy the construction and articulation as well as the players' techniques, but probably not more than once. Respect, admire, even appreciate but not love.

I have a handful of Art Ensemble records, listened to once then filed away. On the other hand, I have a OG copy of Otis Redding - Love Man that has been getting played regularly for 30 years.

I guess I am not the intellectual type, but I have observed that most who claim a deep intellectual understanding and appreciation of this music are mostly posers who probably listen to Partridge Family records in secret.
 
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